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Old 09-04-2011, 05:37 PM
shawn wilson
 
Default DO NOT BUY Western Digital "Green" Drives (also present in WD "Elements" external USB cases)

On Sep 4, 2011 7:53 AM, "D G Teed" <donald.teed@gmail.com> wrote:

>

> On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 4:41 AM, shawn wilson <ag4ve.us@gmail.com> wrote:

>>

>>

>> On Sep 4, 2011 3:23 AM, "Miles Bader" <miles@gnu.org> wrote:

>> >

>> > lina <lina.lastname@gmail.com> writes:

>> > > just guess ... *might be wrong, might lots of people coming for WD,

>> > > so the stores only sold WD.

>> >

>> > Dunno, but I've had extremely good experiences with WD drives in the

>> > past, so I'd definitely favor them when I buy a new one...

>>

>> I have absolutely no oppinion. I was merely pointing out that the OP was presenting his oppinion as fact and I thought that pretty messed up.

>>

>> Grented, due to the inciteful the subject was, I'm sure this thread will keep going for at least a week and most of us will remember something bad about WD the next time we go buy a disc. Oh well. The OP probably* got his wish


>

> Well, actually, you have all helped that to happen by broadening the topic. *It wasn't about a brand, but about

> a brand and model type specifically. *This is about Green WD drives, not all WD drives.

>


My original response was to critisize the OP for sending out such an inflammatory and probably incorrect message. To me, it wasn't about the manufacture or the brand (I'm pretty sure I've got Seagate discs) but about the flawed process that brought about his rant.



> Before buying anything important to you, or something you don't want to buy all over again

> because you are careful with money, you should research the consumer reaction or solicit opinions on it.

>


This is also true. See, a few years ago linux didn't have drivers for everything and you had to research components or there was a 60% or more chance it won't work. Granted, there shouldn't have ever been any discs that wouldn't work in a system. However researching all other components got me in the mindset to always look before I buy.



Actually, linux is probably the main reason I can't buy anything in a store (besides DVDs, clothes, and groceries and that's literally it) because there's no computer there for me to research what I'm buying and compare prices. Yes I have my phone if I'm in a store but I generally find I don't want to buy that product or at least there, so why bother.



> I researched the green drives from all makers and learned they are engineered to do one thing well: save

> power while in a desktop not in use. *They are not designed for servers, nor even for*intense computing

> use like gaming or RAID. *I also noticed consumer backlash on all green drives, and cheaper pricing on

> green drives than any other kind (fire sale at some retailers). *So I did not buy green drives.

>

> I have used WD blue SATA 1TB drives in a couple of servers with RAID 1 and*

> there is no problem.*The most intense server using them is running cyrus mail,

> and horde webmail, for about*3000 mailboxes and probably 500 users

> visiting their mailboxes every day. *The horde*webmail on there also serves

> users of another cyrus system with 4000 more active*mailboxes on it.

> The system is backed up nightly with EMC networker, and runs

> in a room with air conditioning. *Right now, early on a Sunday morning, the load is

> only .35 and the hard drive internal temperature from smartctl is 37 C. *I imagine

> it does go above 40 when loaded or under full backup duty.

>


 
Old 09-04-2011, 05:46 PM
shawn wilson
 
Default DO NOT BUY Western Digital "Green" Drives (also present in WD "Elements" external USB cases)

On Sep 4, 2011 1:28 PM, "Doug" <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> wrote:

>

> On 09/04/2011 03:41 AM, shawn wilson wrote:

>>

>>

>> On Sep 4, 2011 3:23 AM, "Miles Bader" <miles@gnu.org> wrote:

>> >

>> > lina <lina.lastname@gmail.com> writes:

>> > > just guess ... *might be wrong, might lots of people coming for WD,

>> > > so the stores only sold WD.

>> >

>> > Dunno, but I've had extremely good experiences with WD drives in the

>> > past, so I'd definitely favor them when I buy a new one...

>>

>> I have absolutely no oppinion. I was merely pointing out that the OP was presenting his oppinion as fact and I thought that pretty messed up.

>>

>> Grented, due to the inciteful the subject was, I'm sure this thread will keep going for at least a week and most of us will remember something bad about WD the next time we go buy a disc. Oh well. The OP probably* got his wish


>

>

> It's been a few years since I retired, but I remember the IT guys replacing a _lot_ of Western Digital drives.* I guess the

> company bought them because they were cheaper, but I don't think they saved any money.* For my own use, I have been using Seagate and

> Hitachi, and have had no trouble in quite some time.* Obviously, YMMV, but what I saw sould not encourage me to buy WD.


So, if I have 1000 computers with 1000 WD discs and nothing else in them, how many Seagate discs will fail?


Discs do fail and I look forward to someone posting the fail rate of different manufacturer discs. However the above statement doesn't seem to be based on logic.
 
Old 09-04-2011, 06:00 PM
D G Teed
 
Default DO NOT BUY Western Digital "Green" Drives (also present in WD "Elements" external USB cases)

On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 2:27 PM, Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> wrote:







On 09/04/2011 03:41 AM, shawn wilson wrote:




On Sep 4, 2011 3:23 AM, "Miles Bader" <miles@gnu.org>
wrote:

>

> lina <lina.lastname@gmail.com>
writes:

> > just guess ... *might be wrong, might lots of people
coming for WD,

> > so the stores only sold WD.

>

> Dunno, but I've had extremely good experiences with WD
drives in the

> past, so I'd definitely favor them when I buy a new one...


I have absolutely no oppinion. I was merely pointing out that
the OP was presenting his oppinion as fact and I thought that
pretty messed up.


Grented, due to the inciteful the subject was, I'm sure this
thread will keep going for at least a week and most of us will
remember something bad about WD the next time we go buy a disc.
Oh well. The OP probably* got his wish




It's been a few years since I retired, but I remember the IT guys
replacing a _lot_ of Western Digital drives.* I guess the

company bought them because they were cheaper, but I don't think
they saved any money.* For my own use, I have been using Seagate and


Hitachi, and have had no trouble in quite some time.* Obviously,
YMMV, but what I saw sould not encourage me to buy WD.



--doug
There are sometimes bad batches, in any brand. *I remember WD having a bad batch back in the mid-90'swhich was said to be due to painting in the plant causing*contamination. *I'd expect that sort of thing
would be a lesson learned and avoided.
If you google it, you can find people swearing off seagate,*and saying they are safe withwestern digital, or swearing off western digital and saying they are safe*with hitachi,
and every possible combination, all due to their own personal experiences, evenin quantities greater than one or two.
But again, this thread is about WD green drives, not all WD drives, which is a specific engineering
to fit question.
 
Old 09-04-2011, 06:18 PM
"Chris"
 
Default DO NOT BUY Western Digital "Green" Drives (also present in WD "Elements" external USB cases)

Here is the whole thing, (and something that will not sit well with some), the OP posted based on experiance. Absolutly nothing wrong with that. In fact, people tend to make purchase decisions based on that life experiance.

It does not matter if person 1 loves item A if person 2 used item 1 and item 1 has failed them.

These are all opinions. I myeslf did not take the OP's opinion as gospel.
His experiance, his opinion. I tend to agree with the OP based on my experiance.

It does not make the OP any more right than Shawn and vice versa.
The OP is entitled to his opinion as is however, it does not give the right to either of them to show disrespect by simply negating the opinion of one simply because they disagree.

Far too many people forget what opinions are and how they are formulated.


Sent from my HTC.

----- Reply message -----
From: "shawn wilson" <ag4ve.us@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Sep 4, 2011 12:46 pm
Subject: DO NOT BUY Western Digital "Green" Drives (also present in WD "Elements" external USB cases)
To: <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Cc: <debian-user@lists.debian.org>





On Sep 4, 2011 1:28 PM, "Doug" <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> wrote:

>

> On 09/04/2011 03:41 AM, shawn wilson wrote:

>>

>>

>> On Sep 4, 2011 3:23 AM, "Miles Bader" <miles@gnu.org> wrote:

>> >

>> > lina <lina.lastname@gmail.com> writes:

>> > > just guess ... *might be wrong, might lots of people coming for WD,

>> > > so the stores only sold WD.

>> >

>> > Dunno, but I've had extremely good experiences with WD drives in the

>> > past, so I'd definitely favor them when I buy a new one....

>>

>> I have absolutely no oppinion. I was merely pointing out that the OP was presenting his oppinion as fact and I thought that pretty messed up.

>>

>> Grented, due to the inciteful the subject was, I'm sure this thread will keep going for at least a week and most of us will remember something bad about WD the next time we go buy a disc. Oh well. The OP probably* got his wish


>

>

> It's been a few years since I retired, but I remember the IT guys replacing a _lot_ of Western Digital drives.* I guess the

> company bought them because they were cheaper, but I don't think they saved any money.* For my own use, I have been using Seagate and

> Hitachi, and have had no trouble in quite some time.* Obviously, YMMV, but what I saw sould not encourage me to buy WD.


So, if I have 1000 computers with 1000 WD discs and nothing else in them, how many Seagate discs will fail?


Discs do fail and I look forward to someone posting the fail rate of different manufacturer discs. However the above statement doesn't seem to be based on logic.
 
Old 09-04-2011, 06:26 PM
Brad Rogers
 
Default DO NOT BUY Western Digital "Green" Drives (also present in WD "Elements" external USB cases)

On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 13:27:51 -0400
Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> wrote:

Hello Doug,

> It's been a few years since I retired, but I remember the IT guys
> replacing a _lot_ of Western Digital drives. I guess the

In the same vein, I remember lots of Seagate drives being replaced. For
a while the company had a nickname of Seacrate. Possibly because that's
what most of their gear was worth at the time; Crating up, and chucking
in the sea.

At various times, products from certain companies go through a bad
time. Usually, it can be attributed to some factor or other. For
example, one drive manufacturer's drives started failing prematurely
because the wrong type of bearing oil had been used. Such issues often
go unnoticed until quite large numbers of faulty products are in use.
The offending company earns a bad reputation until the next company comes
along and makes a cock-up and everyone forgets about the first one.

WD, Seagate, and just about every other drive manufacturer has gone
through these cycles. It's nothing new, and will continue for years to
come.

--
Regards _
/ ) "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)rad never immediately apparent"
The man in a tracksuit attacks me
I Predict A Riot - Kaiser Chiefs
 
Old 09-04-2011, 08:19 PM
Nicolas Bercher
 
Default DO NOT BUY Western Digital "Green" Drives (also present in WD "Elements" external USB cases)

On 03/09/2011 23:03, shawn wilson wrote:

So, I can understand your frustration but, 4 discs out of how many thousands they make
every day? That's not that conclusive. That said, iirc the reviews about a year ago did
say that this was a very consumer drive. I don't remember hearing them break but...


Right. Moreover, it is well known that a good raid1 array is built upon disks from
different batches. This means you actually had, for example, to order WD hard drives from
various resellers.


In my lab, we used several WD15EARS-32M (WD Green 1.5TB) and a few died early, as well as
other HD from other brands. So, really I think the issue is almost of the time a batch
issue than a brand or design issue.
Maybe these WD HD have design issues, but for sure the experience depicted here is not
really conclusive.


Nicolas


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Old 09-04-2011, 08:31 PM
Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
 
Default DO NOT BUY Western Digital "Green" Drives (also present in WD "Elements" external USB cases)

On Sat, 03 Sep 2011, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> now, you may be thinking "surely, that was just unlucky with two
> drives, right?" wrong - the total number of drives used for this RAID1
> mirror was *four* drives [cf: earlier very helpful discussion
> involving a script which someone published - thanks! - that detected
> partly-complete RAID mirrors]

Same manufacturing lot? Or bought from the same supplier? Have you
checked with WD the origin of these drives? These are very important
things to check for when doing root-cause analysis on multiple HD
failures.

I've seen my share of bad HDD manufacturing lots _and_ bad HDD *supplier
batches*. The first one is caused by component or manufacturing defects.
The second one by negligent handling during storage or transportation, and
it is way too common.

I am not saying WD Green HDDs are good, but what you describe is way
beyond the expected failure rates even for products that aren't engineered
or manufactured for high quality in the first place.

> according to the mdadm mismatch count as a standard heuristic /

Don't trust mdadm mismatch count to gague HDD quality. It is supposed to
detect array corruption, not sector errors. Array corruption is a lot
more likely to be caused by kernel bugs, operator error, or bad RAM on any
modern system where the HBA-HDD link is protected against trivial
corruption, than by other hardware issues.

Actually, I have this hunch md/mismatch_cnt actually doesn't work half
right, but I've not had the time to actually validate it.

> now, apparently, what Western Digital do is they test new drives
> thoroughly, and if they pass with flying colours, they are labelled
> "black" and sold for more money. if they fail, then they're
> "re-programmed" to run a bit slower, thus making less noise, use less
> power, and can therefore justify being sold with a "green" label.

That can actually be checked, at the price of destroying a Black and a
Green WD HDD, and wasting a weekend. It is not even very difficult to do.
Do you have any references to someone who did that checking?

> by contrast, hitachi's 1.5tb drives which were 70 each off of ebuyer
> (instead of 55 for the WD Elements including the external USB case)
> run consistently at a full FOUR degrees centigrade lower temperature,
> even when the WD Green Drive was removed from its USB case and placed
> into the exact same server in which the hitachi drive was present.

IMHO Hitachi GST is the only maker of 2.5" or 3.5" *SATA* HDDs worth
buying ATM. It may or may not last, as WD is buying Hitach GST.

--
"One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
Henrique Holschuh


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Old 09-04-2011, 11:41 PM
 
Default DO NOT BUY Western Digital "Green" Drives (also present in WD "Elements" external USB cases)

----- Original Message -----
From: Brad Rogers
To: Debian Users ML
Sent: 9/4/2011 6:26:48 PM
Subject: Re: DO NOT BUY Western Digital "Green" Drives (also present in WD "Elements" external USB cases)



On Sun, 04 Sep 2011 13:27:51 -0400
Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net> wrote:

Hello Doug,

> It's been a few years since I retired, but I remember the IT guys
> replacing a _lot_ of Western Digital drives. I guess the

In the same vein, I remember lots of Seagate drives being replaced. For
a while the company had a nickname of Seacrate. Possibly because that's
what most of their gear was worth at the time; Crating up, and chucking
in the sea.

At various times, products from certain companies go through a bad
time. Usually, it can be attributed to some factor or other. For
example, one drive manufacturer's drives started failing prematurely
because the wrong type of bearing oil had been used. Such issues often
go unnoticed until quite large numbers of faulty products are in use.
The offending company earns a bad reputation until the next company comes
along and makes a cock-up and everyone forgets about the first one.

WD, Seagate, and just about every other drive manufacturer has gone
through these cycles. It's nothing new, and will continue for years to
come.

--
Regards _
/ ) "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)rad never immediately apparent"
The man in a tracksuit attacks me
I Predict A Riot - Kaiser Chiefs



The two most recent studies (one based on Google hardware and one from Carnegie-Mellon) provide two interesting insights:


1.* While there does not appear to be a strong correlation between failures and manufacturers there is a strong correlation between drive models from a manufacturer and failures.* The inference is that WD may not be failure-prone but some WD products are failure-prone.


2.* There is not a strong dependency between drive temperature and failures.


Larry
 
Old 09-05-2011, 12:03 AM
shawn wilson
 
Default DO NOT BUY Western Digital "Green" Drives (also present in WD "Elements" external USB cases)

On Sep 4, 2011 7:44 PM, <owens@netptc.net> wrote:

>


>>

>> 2.* There is not a strong dependency between drive temperature and failures.

>>


That's interesting. I wonder how they distribute the heat to prevent temperature differences from causing failure. That's spectacular really. So until I cook the circuit board (~80C) the disc will probably continue working?



What report?
 
Old 09-05-2011, 12:43 AM
D G Teed
 
Default DO NOT BUY Western Digital "Green" Drives (also present in WD "Elements" external USB cases)

On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 5:19 PM, Nicolas Bercher <nbercher@yahoo.fr> wrote:

On 03/09/2011 23:03, shawn wilson wrote:


So, I can understand your frustration but, 4 discs out of how many thousands they make

every day? That's not that conclusive. That said, iirc the reviews about a year ago did

say that this was a very consumer drive. I don't remember hearing them break but...




Right. *Moreover, it is well known that a good raid1 array is built upon disks from different batches. *This means you actually had, for example, to order WD hard drives from various resellers.


Um, I don't think there is anyone doing this as standard practise in industry.Typically data centres buy systems from Dell and the like and theyprovide the drives, which are always from the same model in one system.
Maybe in*hand built lab machines you'd do this, but that is for someonerepurposing old hardware or some specialized purpose, not standardcomputing production platform.*

In my lab, we used several WD15EARS-32M (WD Green 1.5TB) and a few died early, as well as other HD from other brands. *So, really I think the issue is almost of the time a batch issue than a brand or design issue.

Maybe these WD HD have design issues, but for sure the experience depicted here is not really conclusive.

If Western Digital themselves are telling us not to use green drives in RAID 1
doesn't this mean something? *It isn't really a "design issue", but moreof an engineering purpose. *You don't put a fridge on the trunk of a VW Jetta,you get a van or truck for this purpose. *Similarly you don't use a green drive,
engineered for desktop users with lots of downtime (typical green driveuser: check mail, make toast,*check the web*for news, make coffee,answer a phone call, answer email -*lots of spurts of minor activity with sleep
cycles between) and purpose*this for a server or other purposes runningthe hard drive hard. *Its like anything else... *There are washing machinesfor home and commercial use - if you use the home version in commercial
use it will destroy itself. *Likewise with printers, copiers, etc. - a $40 consumerprinter is not designed to print off large documents in an office setting.
 

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