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Old 06-29-2011, 02:55 PM
Camaleón
 
Default No more GRUB legacy at install time since wheezy?

On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:02:53 +0100, Lisi wrote:

> On Tuesday 28 June 2011 19:40:15 Camaleón wrote:
>> > If I were the grub maintainer, my first step in dropping grub1 in
>> > Debian would be to make it unavailable from d-i...
>
> So we'll all have to switch to Lilo, which is still maintained. (Or
> should I say again??)

Care when quoting... that was not me ;-)

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 06-29-2011, 03:30 PM
Lisi
 
Default No more GRUB legacy at install time since wheezy?

On Wednesday 29 June 2011 15:55:58 Camaleón wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:02:53 +0100, Lisi wrote:
> > On Tuesday 28 June 2011 19:40:15 Camaleón wrote:
> >> > If I were the grub maintainer, my first step in dropping grub1 in
> >> > Debian would be to make it unavailable from d-i...
> >
> > So we'll all have to switch to Lilo, which is still maintained. (Or
> > should I say again??)
>
> Care when quoting... that was not me ;-)
>
> Greetings,
>
> --
> Camaleón

Sorry, Camaleón, it indeed wasn't. It was Tom H. I apologise. You appear to
me to be arguing on the same side as I am.

I _like_ tried and tested. I _like_ stable. I upgrade my workhorse when
there is a good reason, and am rarely an early adopter. Let other people
iron the bugs out. Where I want to follow something new (e.g. Trinity) I do
it on a non-production machine.

GRUB 2 strikes me as great, except when it causes problems. Too many people
report unbootable systems with GRUB 2, and it seems to be difficult to edit.
I would prefer to wait a little longer for it to settle down.

I dislike change for change's sake. We have an ad running currently in this
country that makes me want to throw something at the television every time I
see it. :-(

This woman is bullyied/manoeuvered/tricked into getting a new Windows computer
which she needs, not because her old one has gracefully (or even less
gracefully) died, not because she is about to shoot and edit a complex bit of
cinematography and her computer isn't man [or woman, of course ;-)] enough,
not because there is any problem at all, but because her computer is 8 years
old. There is nothing wrong with it. It is 8 years old. So she needs a new
computer. Ouch :-(

My computer is seven years old. It appears a little memory challenged at the
moment. I shall run memtest before I even think of upgrading the memory,
since one of the sticks might be faulty. I have had a cursory look at
motherboards and motherboard bundles - but only briefly.

Lisi


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Old 06-29-2011, 06:50 PM
Tom H
 
Default No more GRUB legacy at install time since wheezy?

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Lisi <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday 29 June 2011 15:55:58 Camaleón wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:02:53 +0100, Lisi wrote:
>> > On Tuesday 28 June 2011 19:40:15 Camaleón wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > If I were the grub maintainer, my first step in dropping grub1 in
>> >> > Debian would be to make it unavailable from d-i...
>> >
>> > So we'll all have to switch to Lilo, which is still maintained. *(Or
>> > should I say again??)
>>
>> Care when quoting... that was not me ;-)
>
> Sorry, Camaleón, it indeed wasn't. *It was Tom H. *I apologise. *You appear to
> me to be arguing on the same side as I am.

I never mentioned LILO so it wasn't me either.


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Old 06-29-2011, 09:21 PM
Lisi
 
Default No more GRUB legacy at install time since wheezy?

On Wednesday 29 June 2011 19:50:59 Tom H wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Lisi <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wednesday 29 June 2011 15:55:58 Camaleón wrote:
> >> On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:02:53 +0100, Lisi wrote:
> >> > On Tuesday 28 June 2011 19:40:15 Camaleón wrote:
> >> >> > If I were the grub maintainer, my first step in dropping grub1 in
> >> >> > Debian would be to make it unavailable from d-i...
> >> >
> >> > So we'll all have to switch to Lilo, which is still maintained. *(Or
> >> > should I say again??)
> >>
> >> Care when quoting... that was not me ;-)
> >
> > Sorry, Camaleón, it indeed wasn't. *It was Tom H. *I apologise. *You
> > appear to me to be arguing on the same side as I am.
>
> I never mentioned LILO so it wasn't me either.

No, _I_ mentioned LILO. You said:

> >> >> > If I were the grub maintainer, my first step in dropping grub1 in
> >> >> > Debian would be to make it unavailable from d-i...
> >> >

And it was you who said it - it took me a while to thread back thro' the
slightly complex trimming.

LILO is being maintained again, so those of us who don't yet want to use GRUB
2 and are being firmly told that it is almost immoral to want easy access to
GRUB 1 since it is not being maintained, will obviously have to use LILO. ;-)

And yes, I would exepct to be able to get access to all three if the expert
install is chosen. Except... Except that volunteers will do what they are
happy to do. And if you don't like what they do, you just have to do it for
yourself or pay someone else to do it for you.

So the argument that those who write the installer have a right to decide what
they put in it is incontrovertible. But the argument that newbies might have
trouble with something is a poor excuse for not putting something in the
expert install.

Lisi


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Old 06-29-2011, 10:26 PM
Tom H
 
Default No more GRUB legacy at install time since wheezy?

On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 5:21 PM, Lisi <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday 29 June 2011 19:50:59 Tom H wrote:


>>>>>>> If I were the grub maintainer, my first step in dropping grub1 in
>>>>>>> Debian would be to make it unavailable from d-i...

I definitely said the above. I didn't realize that this was what
Camaleon was referring to; sorry.


> LILO is being maintained again, so those of us who don't yet want to use GRUB
> 2 and are being firmly told that it is almost immoral to want easy access to
> GRUB 1 since it is not being maintained, will obviously have to use LILO. ;-)
>
> And yes, I would exepct to be able to get access to all three if the expert
> install is chosen. *Except... *Except that volunteers will do what they are
> happy to do. *And if you don't like what they do, you just have to do it for
> yourself or pay someone else to do it for you.
>
> So the argument that those who write the installer have a right to decide what
> they put in it is incontrovertible. *But the argument that newbies might have
> trouble with something is a poor excuse for not putting something in the
> expert install.

I don't think that anyone in this thread suggested that using grub1
and insisting on using grub1 is "almost immoral" but it's an
entertaining viewpoint!

Instead of looking at this from the perspective of a user who doesn't
want to change bootloaders and wants to have all possible options
available at install time and later, look at this from the perspective
of Debian as a project. Do you really want the grub maintainers to
split their time and energy between maintaining a bootloader that's
being actively developed and its previous iteration, which has been
EOL'd by upstream? Even though I prefer grub1's setup and consider it
more than good enough for my purposes, I'm glad that it's been dropped
from d-i (I doubt that the d-i developers took this decision without
consulting others, including the grub maintainers) and I look forward
to the time that grub1's removed from the repositories because that'll
show that the resources of Debian as a project are being well managed.

I don't use Debian on the desktop so I don't keep track of the
evolution of DEs, but there must've been a decision at some point to
drop KDE 3 and there'll be a decision at some point to drop GNOME 2.
It's normal to upgrade a distribution's components and follow in the
footsteps of upstream as long as stability isn't compromised (and it
isn't in grub2's case).


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Old 11-26-2011, 03:48 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default No more GRUB legacy at install time since wheezy?

On Tue, 2011-06-28 at 18:40 +0000, Camaleón wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jun 2011 13:19:15 -0400, Tom H wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 6:52 AM, Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 26 Jun 2011 16:27:18 -0400, Tom H wrote:
> >>> On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 1:34 PM, Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>>> For grub2, there's also just one file to tweak, "/etc/default/grub",
> >>>>> and the CLI tools are more powerful.
> >>>>
> >>>> Are your sure?
> >>>
> >>> Yes, for the great majority of users.
> >>
> >> Ah, that's explains all. But I'd say a great percentage of Debian users
> >> do not search for what majority of users seek.
> >
> > I'd include the majority of Debian users too in my statement.
>
> That looks to be a bit optimistic :-)
>
> > Changing the files in "/etc/grub.d/"
>
> Hey, hey... we were talking about what can be done by editing "one" file,
> that is, "/etc/default/grub". Of course, if we start by editing all the
> stuff at /etc/grub.d/* we can make whatever we want but that was not my
> point nor my complain ;-)
>
> > (1) changes the order of your grub menu entries (for example, by
> > renumbering the files), (2) changes the text displayed in those entries
> > (by editing the naming parts of the scripts; for example getting rid of
> > the superfluous "GNU/Linux"in the menu entries), (3) adds custom menu
> > entries (like the guy who added runlevels 3-5 earlier in this thread).
>
> And I will add that all of the above is not what all common users do.
>
> > "/etc/default/grub" controls the options of the "linux" line, the
> > default entry, the menu timeout, the screen resolution, the creation of
> > "recovery" or "os-prober" entries, and the fonts and graphics (if you
> > have/want them).
>
> I, personally, only use to change the kernel line stanza and set some
> default options to prevail after updates (in GRUB's legacy parlance, that
> was "kopt=" value).
>
> >>> You can edit the files in "/etc/grub.d/" - or rename them or add to
> >>> them - but the canonical way of changing grub settings is through
> >>> "/etc/default/grub".
> >>
> >> Yep, but not all the available options are available from there, or so
> >> says the docs.
> >
> > Which options?
>
> I mean, for instance, "GRUB_DISABLE_OS_PROBER". It is not documented in
> the same file, but there are others. For those, you have to run "info -f
> grub -n 'Simple configuration'" to have access to all of the tweakable
> variables.
>
> >>> I used to edit 10_linux, 30_os-prober, and "/usr/sbin/grub-mkconfig"
> >>> in order to customize grub2 to my liking but I've given up.
> >>
> >> You see? There will be ocassions where the user have to jump from
> >> "/etc/ default/grub" to /etc/grub.d and find out what file in there to
> >> modify. With GRUB legacy there were only 1 or 2 files, less error
> >> prone, IMO.
> >
> > See above regarding the use of "/etc/grub.d/".
>
> Yes, but that involves more than one file.
>
> > Again, for the majority of users, in grub1 you edit
> > "/boot/grub/menu.lst" and in grub2 you edit "/etc/default/grub".
>
> Mmm... for editing the kernel line you will have to jump to /etc/grub.d/*
> and is one of the most performed actions...
>
> > The latter's more logical from a design perspective. When I first used
> > Debian, I thought "what's all this rubbish in "menu.lst"? Having the
> > options governing a section of a file included in that file is nicely
> > recursive but pretty weird. Furthermore, having active options preceded
> > by one "#" and comments by two "##" in the automagic kernel section is
> > smart but just as weird.
>
> I also found Debian's GRUB legacy "menu.lst" to be very verbose but I
> liked that way. I also found additional options that were not present in
> another distributions which it finally turned out to be very helpful.
>
> >>> It'll come if it isn't already out. The grub1/grub2 developers are
> >>> probably keeping grub1 around to ease the Lenny-Squeeze transition but
> >>> they're going to say at some point that they no longer want to
> >>> maintain grub1.
> >>
> >> It is still available for install, just the installer does not present
> >> the option.
> >
> > If I were the grub maintainer, my first step in dropping grub1 in Debian
> > would be to make it unavailable from d-i...
>
> Ha, how nice! >:-)
>
> But the package is still available and thus, it can be installed and
> thus, it has to be maintained (at least until wheezy becomes unsupported).
>
> Greetings,

For GRUB 1 I only edited menu.lst and for GRUB 2 I only edit grub.cfg.
All that automation is useless for my needs. For example, how should the
automation know, for what of my kernels 'threadirqs' should be added and
when not to add it? Super cow powers?
It takes seconds to edit menu.lst or grub.cfg and to make a backup of
those files. Unfortunately I found no way to stop the auto-generating
forever, since an upgrade could bring back this grub update thingy.

(__)
(oo)
/------/
/ | ||
* /---/
~~ ~~
...."Have you mooed today?"...

- Ralf


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Old 11-26-2011, 04:13 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default No more GRUB legacy at install time since wheezy?

Pardon, I didn't notice that this thread was from old digest .
Evolution did show unread mails u n s o r t e d and I didn't take a
look at the date .

My bad , sorry.


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Old 11-26-2011, 04:36 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default No more GRUB legacy at install time since wheezy?

On Sat, 2011-11-26 at 06:13 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> Pardon, I didn't notice that this thread was from old digest .
> Evolution did show unread mails u n s o r t e d and I didn't take a
> look at the date .
>
> My bad , sorry.

I'm embarrassed. There's no need to discuss this old GRUB thingy again.
I simply was half asleep, woken up some minutes before and didn't
realized my fallacy :S.



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