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Old 06-25-2011, 03:31 AM
consul tores
 
Default No more GRUB legacy at install time since wheezy?

2011/6/24 Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk>:
> On Fri 24 Jun 2011 at 21:35:16 +0200, Sven Joachim wrote:
>
>> Having switched to grub2 recently, I do that as well. *But I suspect
>> most people will be content with the simpler configuration options
>> offered by editing /etc/default/grub and running update-grub.
>
> That's me! Although I do have a little change made to debian_theme.
>
> Why is it some people dislike GRUB2? My experience isn't great but it
> boots Debian kernels reliably on my machines. Nothing complicated I
> admit, and I'm not overfussed about configuring it to display fancy
> menus. What basic changes to grub.cfg cannot be made from the files in
> /etc?

Multibooting:

It does not recognize Windows partitions correctly.
It becomes crazy with ufs.
Some times it recognize the same partition twice.

It might has been build to work alone, which is not really necessary.

>
> As an aside: Is having 'DO NOT EDIT THIS FILE' and making the file
> read-only really an invitation to do the opposite?
>
>


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Old 06-25-2011, 03:59 AM
Scott Ferguson
 
Default No more GRUB legacy at install time since wheezy?

On 25/06/11 06:51, Brian wrote:
> On Fri 24 Jun 2011 at 21:35:16 +0200, Sven Joachim wrote:
>
>> Having switched to grub2 recently, I do that as well. But I suspect
>> most people will be content with the simpler configuration options
>> offered by editing /etc/default/grub and running update-grub.
>
> That's me! Although I do have a little change made to debian_theme.
>
> Why is it some people dislike GRUB2? My experience isn't great but it
> boots Debian kernels reliably on my machines. Nothing complicated I
> admit, and I'm not overfussed about configuring it to display fancy
> menus. What basic changes to grub.cfg cannot be made from the files in
> /etc?
>
> As an aside: Is having 'DO NOT EDIT THIS FILE' and making the file
> read-only really an invitation to do the opposite?
>
>
Indeed! - not only is /etc/default/grub the appropriate place to make
changes - it's simpler, and it shows respect for the developers taking
the time to document it as being the place to make (most) changes.

There's even a gui for changing from grub-legacy and grub2
(grub-choose-default)(Squeeze).

For the splash screens in grub2 try - gfxboot.

For gnome there is a package called startupmanager - which looks
interesting (though I don't run gnome).

For pure time-wasting distractions try grub-invaders, as a bonus it
loads very fast!

I agree that there have been some problems with grub2 during upgrades -
but for me it's worth it. Grub(legacy) was better than lilo, and grub2
is better than grub-legacy. I look forward to trying pxe from grub2 and
grub-coreboot on an old supported mb.

Cheers

--
I'm tired of this back-slapping "Isn't humanity neat?" bullsh#t. We're a
virus with shoes, okay? That's all we are.
~ Bill Hicks


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Old 06-25-2011, 08:44 AM
Camaleón
 
Default No more GRUB legacy at install time since wheezy?

On Fri, 24 Jun 2011 21:20:21 +0100, Brian wrote:

> On Fri 24 Jun 2011 at 19:13:27 +0000, Camaleón wrote:
>
>> Nope, that's a GRUB's statement not a Debian's one :-)
>
> You'll have to make do with this:
>
> http://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/GRUB2asDefault

Old stuff.

GRUB2 as default in the installer is a very good approach, as long as you
still have the option to get GRUB legacy, which seems no longer possible.

>> There are many packages that are not being "actively" developed but
>> still maintained upstream (how about "Unison"?) like GRUB legacy is.
>
> GRUB legacy is hardly being maintained upstream. It's on life-support.

It still receives bugfixes, enough for people who uses to install Debian
"stable" and prefers "old-but-working-and-tested" packages than the
bleeding edge.

> > Only bugfixes will be made so that GRUB Legacy can stil be used for
> > older systems.
>
>> Nice speech,
>
> Thank you - but it was of a 'get in touch with pragmatism' effort.
>
>> but I prefer to see the real numbers that support
>> it >:-)
>
> You give me the number of Debian users and I'll make a stab at it.

Sadly there are no credible numbers that can be fetched. For this kind of
decisions, I would prefer a poll or something in the like.

Greetings,

--
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Old 06-25-2011, 12:52 PM
Brian
 
Default No more GRUB legacy at install time since wheezy?

On Fri 24 Jun 2011 at 15:11:13 -0700, Freeman wrote:

> Grub2 didn't like my setup during upgrade.
>
> My menu.lst of Grub 0.97 included numerous different rc levels to select
> from. Just a way of selecting between different interfaces while booting.
>
> So the following blocks in the automagic section of menu.lst resulted in a 4
> item menu for each kernel, one item booting into GDM, the next starting xinit
> with Openbox--booting from rc5.d, rc4.d rc3.d and rc2.d respectively.

[Snip menu.lst fragment]

> When grub2 setup hit that, it gave me some garbled menu item that failed,
> followed by its basic boot items for console and maintenance.

The Release Notes for Squeeze offer advice on keeping GRUB Legacy and
chainloading GRUB 2. There is also a mention of possibly having to
adjust complex configurations to fit GRUB 2. You were in that category
so were forewarned some extra work was in prospect. It would have been
nice to have had a seamless conversion of menu.lst to grub.cfg but
sometimes it cannot be done.

> So now I have an /etc/grub.d/09_custom that renders a menu above Grub2's
> default menu. I manually edit it for kernel upgrades with "find and
> replace" of kernel numbers. I don't like having a fractured, two part menu
> that doesn't completely upgrade automagically. But it works:

You do not have to have it.

You are using 09_custom for its intended purpose; previously you edited
menu.lst. To boot with the latest kernel:

> linux /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.37-1-amd64

linux /vmlinuz

> initrd /boot/initrd.img-2.6.37-1-amd64

initrd /initrd.img

To tidy up the menu a non-executable 10_linux may be something to
consider.


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Old 06-25-2011, 05:01 PM
Tom H
 
Default No more GRUB legacy at install time since wheezy?

On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 13:42:40 -0400, Tom H wrote:
>>
>> For the record, I prefer grub1's config to grub2's but grub2's been
>> almost problem-free for me for a long time. Almost: one small problem
>> (Karmic's grub2 couldn't recognize Fedora's initrd when creating a
>> Fedora menu entry) and one big problem (until last summer, grub2
>> couldn't boot from mdraid metadata 1.x).
>
> I also find GRUB legacy more suitable to my needs. I don't remember any
> problem with it, I mean, nothing that could not be solved by manually
> editing the "menu.lst" or by launching GRUB's legacy console from the
> menu. It had a small set of options and files to tweak (compared to GRUB
> 2) but I see that as a plus rather than a weakness because that makes it
> less vulnerable to flaws. Of course, I understand there are people with
> new needs that find GRUB 2 perfect for them, so having both options
> available in the installer is, IMO, a perfect deal :-)

For grub2, there's also just one file to tweak, "/etc/default/grub",
and the CLI tools are more powerful.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet that grub1 won't be available in
Wheezy once it's published...


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Old 06-25-2011, 05:19 PM
Tom H
 
Default No more GRUB legacy at install time since wheezy?

On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 6:11 PM, Freeman <hewho7@gmail.com> wrote:


> Grub2 didn't like my setup during upgrade.
>
> My menu.lst of Grub 0.97 included numerous different rc levels to select
> from. Just a way of selecting between different interfaces while booting.
>
> So the following blocks in the automagic section of menu.lst resulted in a 4
> item menu for each kernel, one item booting into GDM, the next starting
> xinit with Openbox--booting from rc5.d, rc4.d rc3.d and rc2.d respectively.
>
> ## altoption boot targets option
> ## multiple altoptions lines are allowed
> ## e.g. altoptions=(extra menu suffix) extra boot options
> ## altoptions=(single-user) single
> # altoptions=(GDM) 5 vga=791 quiet
> # altoptions=(Openbox) 4 vga=791 quiet
> # altoptions=(Screen) 3 vga=791
> # altoptions=(single-user mode) single
>
> When grub2 setup hit that, it gave me some garbled menu item that failed,
> followed by its basic boot items for console and maintenance.
>
> So now I have an /etc/grub.d/09_custom that renders a menu above Grub2's
> default menu. I manually edit it for kernel upgrades with "find and
> replace" of kernel numbers. I don't like having a fractured, two part menu
> that doesn't completely upgrade automagically. But it works:

This was a good Debianism that I wish the Debian maintainers had tried
to have integrated into grub2 upstream. They'd just need to make, for
example, "GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_ALTx" and "GRUB_TITLE_LINUX_ALTx",
available in "/etc/default/grub", with the corresponding changes in
"/usr/sbin/grub-mkconfig" and "/etc/grub.d/10_linux" for them to be
used.


>> As an aside: Is having 'DO NOT EDIT THIS FILE' and making the file
>> read-only really an invitation to do the opposite?
>
> Without any other information, I'd have to edit the file to see what
> happens. =:0

Same here!


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Old 06-25-2011, 05:20 PM
Tom H
 
Default No more GRUB legacy at install time since wheezy?

On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 11:31 PM, consul tores <consultores1@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2011/6/24 Brian <ad44@cityscape.co.uk>:
>> On Fri 24 Jun 2011 at 21:35:16 +0200, Sven Joachim wrote:
>>
>>> Having switched to grub2 recently, I do that as well. *But I suspect
>>> most people will be content with the simpler configuration options
>>> offered by editing /etc/default/grub and running update-grub.
>>
>> That's me! Although I do have a little change made to debian_theme.
>>
>> Why is it some people dislike GRUB2? My experience isn't great but it
>> boots Debian kernels reliably on my machines. Nothing complicated I
>> admit, and I'm not overfussed about configuring it to display fancy
>> menus. What basic changes to grub.cfg cannot be made from the files in
>> /etc?
>
> Multibooting:
>
> It does not recognize Windows partitions correctly.
> It becomes crazy with ufs.
> Some times it recognize the same partition twice.
>
> It might has been build to work alone, which is not really necessary.

Have you filed bugs?


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Old 06-25-2011, 05:34 PM
Camaleón
 
Default No more GRUB legacy at install time since wheezy?

El 25/06/11 19:01, Tom H escribió:


On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Camaleón<noelamac@gmail.com> wrote:



I also find GRUB legacy more suitable to my needs. I don't remember any
problem with it, I mean, nothing that could not be solved by manually
editing the "menu.lst" or by launching GRUB's legacy console from the
menu. It had a small set of options and files to tweak (compared to GRUB
2) but I see that as a plus rather than a weakness because that makes it
less vulnerable to flaws. Of course, I understand there are people with
new needs that find GRUB 2 perfect for them, so having both options
available in the installer is, IMO, a perfect deal :-)


For grub2, there's also just one file to tweak, "/etc/default/grub",
and the CLI tools are more powerful.


Are your sure?

test@debian:~$ ls -l /etc/grub*
total 52
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 6711 may 31 10:46 00_header
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 5407 ene 18 12:44 05_debian_theme
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 5898 may 31 10:46 10_linux
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 5982 may 31 10:46 20_linux_xen
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 5975 may 31 10:46 30_os-prober
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 214 may 31 10:46 40_custom
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 95 may 31 10:46 41_custom
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 483 may 31 10:46 README

test@debian:~$ cat /etc/grub.d/README

All executable files in this directory are processed in shell expansion
order.


00_*: Reserved for 00_header.
10_*: Native boot entries.
20_*: Third party apps (e.g. memtest86+).

The number namespace in-between is configurable by system installer
and/or administrator. For example, you can add an entry to boot another
OS as 01_otheros, 11_otheros, etc, depending on the position you want it
to occupy in the menu; and then adjust the default setting via
/etc/default/grub.


And /boot/grub is plenty of small files:

test@debian:~$ ls -l /boot/grub | wc -l
206

So let's say I want to disallow GRUB2 from including my Windows
partition at the menu... should I tweak /etc/default/grub or should I
dive into /etc/grub.d/os-prober, or...?



If I were a betting man, I'd bet that grub1 won't be available in
Wheezy once it's published...


And that was what I asked for, but I'm still waiting to see an official
statement for whatever decision they take. I can deal with either, but I
would like to be prepared for the worst ;-)


Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 06-25-2011, 06:30 PM
Brian
 
Default No more GRUB legacy at install time since wheezy?

On Sat 25 Jun 2011 at 19:34:27 +0200, Camaleón wrote:

> El 25/06/11 19:01, Tom H escribió:
>
>> For grub2, there's also just one file to tweak, "/etc/default/grub",
>> and the CLI tools are more powerful.
>
> Are your sure?
>
> test@debian:~$ ls -l /etc/grub*
> total 52
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 6711 may 31 10:46 00_header
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 5407 ene 18 12:44 05_debian_theme
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 5898 may 31 10:46 10_linux
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 5982 may 31 10:46 20_linux_xen
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 5975 may 31 10:46 30_os-prober
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 214 may 31 10:46 40_custom
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 95 may 31 10:46 41_custom
> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 483 may 31 10:46 README

With Linux you have complete control - so you can alter any file you
wish. However, it is not usual (and maybe ill-advised) to change
00_header, 10_linux, 20_linux_xen or 30_os-prober. 40_custom is
completely under your control (there is an example in this thread) and
05_debian_theme could be customised.

> And /boot/grub is plenty of small files:

So? You can add to them but there is nothing to take away or alter.

> So let's say I want to disallow GRUB2 from including my Windows
> partition at the menu... should I tweak /etc/default/grub or should I
> dive into /etc/grub.d/os-prober, or...?

GRUB_DISABLE_OS_PROBER=true

in /etc/default/grub. It's documented. Alternatively be brutal and
uninstall os-prober.
>
>> If I were a betting man, I'd bet that grub1 won't be available in
>> Wheezy once it's published...
>
> And that was what I asked for, but I'm still waiting to see an official
> statement for whatever decision they take. I can deal with either, but I
> would like to be prepared for the worst ;-)

Some more old news.

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2009/09/msg00002.html

And there is always the Release Notes for Squeeze. If neither is
'official' enough you can always get the Profect Leader to make a
statement.

Prepare for the worst. You won't go far wrong.


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Old 06-25-2011, 07:14 PM
Camaleón
 
Default No more GRUB legacy at install time since wheezy?

On Sat, 25 Jun 2011 19:30:50 +0100, Brian wrote:

> On Sat 25 Jun 2011 at 19:34:27 +0200, Camaleón wrote:

(...)

> With Linux you have complete control - so you can alter any file you
> wish. However, it is not usual (and maybe ill-advised) to change
> 00_header, 10_linux, 20_linux_xen or 30_os-prober. 40_custom is
> completely under your control (there is an example in this thread) and
> 05_debian_theme could be customised.

Sure, but that's no what I understand for "with GRUB2 there is only one
file to tweak", there are many and we (as admins) have to learn about
them ;-)

>> And /boot/grub is plenty of small files:
>
> So? You can add to them but there is nothing to take away or alter.

The less files for a bootloader, the better. Not a scientific statement,
of course, just a wild-guess.

>> So let's say I want to disallow GRUB2 from including my Windows
>> partition at the menu... should I tweak /etc/default/grub or should I
>> dive into /etc/grub.d/os-prober, or...?
>
> GRUB_DISABLE_OS_PROBER=true
>
> in /etc/default/grub. It's documented. Alternatively be brutal and
> uninstall os-prober.

Thanks much... but documented where? :-?

And after adding that stanza, should I edit anything else or just it will
be autoremoved at next boot?

>>> If I were a betting man, I'd bet that grub1 won't be available in
>>> Wheezy once it's published...
>>
>> And that was what I asked for, but I'm still waiting to see an official
>> statement for whatever decision they take. I can deal with either, but
>> I would like to be prepared for the worst ;-)
>
> Some more old news.
>
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2009/09/msg00002.html

***
"(...) Nervertheless, we're aware that for a minority of users, upgrading
is not currently an option, because they rely on specific features of
GRUB Legacy that GRUB 2 doesn't provide. For those users, GRUB Legacy
will continue being supported, at least up untill the Squeeze release."
***

My 0.2 cents go for that! I wish the same for wheezy O:-)

> And there is always the Release Notes for Squeeze. If neither is
> 'official' enough you can always get the Profect Leader to make a
> statement.
>
> Prepare for the worst. You won't go far wrong.

Ahhh, "there is always hope", like Arwen said...

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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