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Old 06-12-2011, 10:23 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Is there any valid reason to add an idiotic script to /etc/init.d by an default Debian install that only cause a PITA?

-------- Forwarded Message --------
From: Ralf Mardorf
To: linux-audio-user@lists.linuxaudio.org
Subject: Re: [LAU] Jack vs. Alsa, PianoTeq demo: Alsa wins!
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 12:15:20 +0200

On Sun, 2011-06-12 at 11:59 +0200, [...] wrote:
> On 06/12/2011 11:44 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > What CPU frequency scaling? Is it set to performance? There's a new
> > nuisance for GNOME desktops on Ubuntu and Debian, they ignore the
> > kernel's default CPU frequency scaling, they switch from 'performance'
> > to 'ondemand' for GNOME sessions.
>
> apt-file search ondemand | grep init.d
> initscripts: /etc/init.d/ondemand
>
> So at least on Ubuntu the ondemand init script is part of the
> initscripts package and has nothing to do with Gnome.
>
> Best,
>
> Jeremy


Thank you

On Debian it's

$ cat /etc/init.d/cpufrequtils
#!/bin/sh
[snip]
GOVERNOR="ondemand"
[snip]

anyway, this is idiocy, hence the default can be set by the kernel. For
the kernel-generic-default-office-non-real-time a distro could chose
'ondemand'. This script is nonsense and only cause that once a month
somebody send a request regarding to xruns when using jackd.

Regards,

Ralf


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Old 06-12-2011, 01:35 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Is there any valid reason to add an idiotic script to /etc/init.d by an default Debian install that only cause a PITA?

On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 12:23:16 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

(not sure if this post was targeted to this mailing list...)

(...)

> anyway, this is idiocy, hence the default can be set by the kernel. For
> the kernel-generic-default-office-non-real-time a distro could chose
> 'ondemand'. This script is nonsense and only cause that once a month
> somebody send a request regarding to xruns when using jackd.

What's the problem here? What kind of annoyance are you having with that
script? I find it very convenient, it allows you to:

1/ Completely remove/disable it from starting in an easy manner
2/ Tweaking the cpu scaling without much headache

What more do you need? :-)

Greetings,

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Old 06-12-2011, 03:35 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Is there any valid reason to add an idiotic script to /etc/init.d by an default Debian install that only cause a PITA?

On Sun, 2011-06-12 at 13:35 +0000, Camaleón wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 12:23:16 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>
> (not sure if this post was targeted to this mailing list...)
>
> (...)
>
> > anyway, this is idiocy, hence the default can be set by the kernel. For
> > the kernel-generic-default-office-non-real-time a distro could chose
> > 'ondemand'. This script is nonsense and only cause that once a month
> > somebody send a request regarding to xruns when using jackd.
>
> What's the problem here? What kind of annoyance are you having with that
> script? I find it very convenient, it allows you to:
>
> 1/ Completely remove/disable it from starting in an easy manner
> 2/ Tweaking the cpu scaling without much headache
>
> What more do you need? :-)
>
> Greetings,


- This can be done without this script. What is the kernel config for?
- Inexperienced people get 'mysterious' xruns using jackd.
- Inexperienced people willing to 'read the [fine] manual' anyway don't
know what they need to read, especially when thy think jackd is buggy.
- I run audio sessions by shell scripts, hence I can set the governor to
performance, while it's ok when it's set to ondemand for non-audio
usage.
- Why not making a Debian that OOTB fit to most needs, even for people
who don't wish to read [fine] manuals and to learn how to program.
- When I get a knife, I know how to use it, but I don't know how to make
a knife and I don't want to learn how to make a knife, it should be
already edged. I won't RTFM about knives.

2 Cents,

Ralf



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Old 06-12-2011, 04:09 PM
Tom H
 
Default Is there any valid reason to add an idiotic script to /etc/init.d by an default Debian install that only cause a PITA?

On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Ralf Mardorf
<ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net> wrote:
>
> - Why not making a Debian that OOTB fit to most needs, even for people
> *who don't wish to read [fine] manuals and to learn how to program.

Maybe the developers decided that the current setting's the one that
fits most needs.

If you feel this strongly, perhaps you could contact the developers -
but calling their decision idiotic isn't the best way forward (I'd
certainly ignore any email that you'd send me!).


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Old 06-13-2011, 01:28 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Is there any valid reason to add an idiotic script to /etc/init.d by an default Debian install that only cause a PITA?

On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:35:02 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> On Sun, 2011-06-12 at 13:35 +0000, Camaleón wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2011 12:23:16 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>>
>> (not sure if this post was targeted to this mailing list...)
>>
>> (...)
>>
>> > anyway, this is idiocy, hence the default can be set by the kernel.
>> > For the kernel-generic-default-office-non-real-time a distro could
>> > chose 'ondemand'. This script is nonsense and only cause that once a
>> > month somebody send a request regarding to xruns when using jackd.
>>
>> What's the problem here? What kind of annoyance are you having with
>> that script? I find it very convenient, it allows you to:
>>
>> 1/ Completely remove/disable it from starting in an easy manner 2/
>> Tweaking the cpu scaling without much headache
>>
>> What more do you need? :-)
>>
>> Greetings,
>
>
> - This can be done without this script. What is the kernel config for?

And you prefer that people have to recompile the kernel to tweak that
setting? :-?

> - Inexperienced people get 'mysterious' xruns using jackd.

I don't undertsand this. Can you expand this a bit for neophytes? :-)

> - Inexperienced people willing to 'read the [fine] manual' anyway don't
> know what they need to read, especially when thy think jackd is buggy.

But not all users are using jackd and there has to be a default setting
that best fits to as many users as possible :-)

In this regard, I know in other distributions (e.g., openSUSE) there are
different kernels with different settings preset that affect to sound
applications (like PulseAudio) aimed to desktop (-desktop) and servers (-
default) but here we only have one main kernel, so do you think the
default settings should make happy to just 20% of the users?

I prefer a default setting to be "user-wise" and then have the
possibility to easily change that default configuration at my wish.

> - I run audio sessions by shell scripts, hence I can set the governor to
> performance, while it's ok when it's set to ondemand for non-audio
> usage.

But you can easily tweak that value or even disable it, right?

> - Why not making a Debian that OOTB fit to most needs, even for people
> who don't wish to read [fine] manuals and to learn how to program.

Having a value for cpufreq different than "ondemand" will nto make any
favour to the vast majority of computers. The exception cannot be the
norm :-)

> - When I get a knife, I know how to use it, but I don't know how to make
> a knife and I don't want to learn how to make a knife, it should be
> already edged. I won't RTFM about knives.

There are many advantadges in knowing how a knife is made or what type of
knifes there are. If you are not interested on it, well, that's fine, but
then you should go to a megastore to buy it one (no one in there will ask
you specific question about how are you going to use the knife) instead
of a specialized cutlery shop (where you will be asked many question in
order to get the right item for you).

I hope you've understood that in the above metaphor Windows is the
"megastore" and Linux is the "cutlery shop" ;-)

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 06-13-2011, 07:22 PM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Is there any valid reason to add an idiotic script to /etc/init.d by an default Debian install that only cause a PITA?

On Du, 12 iun 11, 17:35:02, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>
> - This can be done without this script. What is the kernel config for?

For those who don't ever compile their kernel. I assume these are the
most.

Regards,
Andrei
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Old 06-14-2011, 01:23 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Is there any valid reason to add an idiotic script to /etc/init.d by an default Debian install that only cause a PITA?

On Mon, 2011-06-13 at 13:28 +0000, Camaleón wrote:
> > - Inexperienced people get 'mysterious' xruns using jackd.
>
> I don't undertsand this. Can you expand this a bit for neophytes? :-)

If you install jackd and try to make music without a real-time capable
kernel or with CPU ferquency scaling set to performance you'll get
audible glitches.

> here we only have one main kernel, so do you think the
> default settings should make happy to just 20% of the users?
>
> I prefer a default setting to be "user-wise" and then have the
> possibility to easily change that default configuration at my wish.

You can add such a script if wanted yourself and the kernels default
could be set to 'ondemand', hence no script is needed. At the moment
people need to use a kernel-rt for audio productions, hences this kernel
could be set to 'performance'.

> > - I run audio sessions by shell scripts, hence I can set the governor to
> > performance, while it's ok when it's set to ondemand for non-audio
> > usage.
>
> But you can easily tweak that value or even disable it, right?

Yes, but not everybody knows about CPU frequency scaling and those
issues, so you'll read about mysterious audible glitches for the audio
signal all the time on audio mailing lists.

> > - Why not making a Debian that OOTB fit to most needs, even for people
> > who don't wish to read [fine] manuals and to learn how to program.
>
> Having a value for cpufreq different than "ondemand" will nto make any
> favour to the vast majority of computers. The exception cannot be the
> norm :-)

'ondemand' is nearly useless, you won't reduce the load very much, it's
around 1 W, nothing regarding to the CPU's load of 40, 50, 60 W and
higher.

> I hope you've understood that in the above metaphor Windows is the
> "megastore" and Linux is the "cutlery shop" ;-)

So Linux is not for intuitive users, for nerds only ?

OT: Btw. 2.6.39.1 don't need a rt-patch anymore. I installed the
outdated proprietary nvidia driver, since there's no package for the
installer, for the current one, but I guess there's the current
proprietary driver for the 'regular' Debian kernel provided by a
package. I might be mistaken. If not I wonder why Debian make things
harder than there's the need to do. So I'll stay at the outdated one or
need to do anything manually, which is time consuming, because I already
had to build ALSA myself, rt capable kernels etc.. Debian seems to be
one of those multimedia unfriendly distros, while we are living in a
multimedia world. All kinds of flashy trash seems to be available, such
as 3D desktops etc..

Regards,

Ralf


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Old 06-14-2011, 01:53 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Is there any valid reason to add an idiotic script to /etc/init.d by an default Debian install that only cause a PITA?

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 15:23:16 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> On Mon, 2011-06-13 at 13:28 +0000, Camaleón wrote:
>> > - Inexperienced people get 'mysterious' xruns using jackd.
>>
>> I don't undertsand this. Can you expand this a bit for neophytes? :-)
>
> If you install jackd and try to make music without a real-time capable
> kernel or with CPU ferquency scaling set to performance you'll get
> audible glitches.

Ah, ok.

But that's a known issue, right? Or at least is not different from other
problems that any user which requires a specific/fine grained setup or
tweaks may experience.

>> here we only have one main kernel, so do you think the
>> default settings should make happy to just 20% of the users?
>>
>> I prefer a default setting to be "user-wise" and then have the
>> possibility to easily change that default configuration at my wish.
>
> You can add such a script if wanted yourself and the kernels default
> could be set to 'ondemand', hence no script is needed.

But then you are enforcing a cpu frequency policy that can cause problems
to the majority of the users... are you suggesting that?

> At the moment people need to use a kernel-rt for audio productions,
> hences this kernel could be set to 'performance'.

Or a prebuild tweaked kernel package ready to be installed easily, like
openSUSE has.

>> > - I run audio sessions by shell scripts, hence I can set the governor
>> > to
>> > performance, while it's ok when it's set to ondemand for non-audio
>> > usage.
>>
>> But you can easily tweak that value or even disable it, right?
>
> Yes, but not everybody knows about CPU frequency scaling and those
> issues, so you'll read about mysterious audible glitches for the audio
> signal all the time on audio mailing lists.

Err, if that's the only annoyance, have you ever considered to write a
page in the Debian wiki and pointing users to there? :-)

>> > - Why not making a Debian that OOTB fit to most needs, even for
>> > people
>> > who don't wish to read [fine] manuals and to learn how to program.
>>
>> Having a value for cpufreq different than "ondemand" will nto make any
>> favour to the vast majority of computers. The exception cannot be the
>> norm :-)
>
> 'ondemand' is nearly useless, you won't reduce the load very much, it's
> around 1 W, nothing regarding to the CPU's load of 40, 50, 60 W and
> higher.

It's not about "load" but "frequency speed" and my micro reduces its
cycles from 2.8 Ghz. (normal run) to 2.0 Ghz (idle+ondemad) which I
prefer. Why wasting cpu cycles and increasing the heat of the whole
system if I don't really need all that power all the time?

>> I hope you've understood that in the above metaphor Windows is the
>> "megastore" and Linux is the "cutlery shop" ;-)
>
> So Linux is not for intuitive users, for nerds only ?

Well, not at all. The moral of the story was that most of the linux users
like to know what are they doing, they like digging into their system's
guts and enjoy learning while windows users are more accostumed to things
work "magically" :-)

> OT: Btw. 2.6.39.1 don't need a rt-patch anymore.

Good.

> I installed the outdated proprietary nvidia driver, since there's no
> package for the installer, for the current one, but I guess there's the
> current proprietary driver for the 'regular' Debian kernel provided by a
> package. I might be mistaken. If not I wonder why Debian make things
> harder than there's the need to do.

Nvidia (and ati) closed source package is a bit oudated from debian non-
oss but you can always go to nvidia site and get the latest driver from
there.

> So I'll stay at the outdated one or need to do anything manually, which
> is time consuming, because I already had to build ALSA myself, rt
> capable kernels etc.. Debian seems to be one of those multimedia
> unfriendly distros, while we are living in a multimedia world. All
> kinds of flashy trash seems to be available, such as 3D desktops etc..

Debian is a multi-purpose distribution, focused to desktops,
workstatiosn, servers, embedded systems, etc... you can't get all of your
users happy :-). You just have to consider if benefits have more weight
than deficiencies.

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 06-14-2011, 02:16 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Is there any valid reason to add an idiotic script to /etc/init.d by an default Debian install that only cause a PITA?

On Tue, 2011-06-14 at 13:53 +0000, Camaleón wrote:

> But that's a known issue, right? Or at least is not different from other
> problems that any user which requires a specific/fine grained setup or
> tweaks may experience.

Yes and yes.

> But then you are enforcing a cpu frequency policy that can cause problems
> to the majority of the users... are you suggesting that?

What kind of problems?

> > Yes, but not everybody knows about CPU frequency scaling and those
> > issues, so you'll read about mysterious audible glitches for the audio
> > signal all the time on audio mailing lists.
>
> Err, if that's the only annoyance, have you ever considered to write a
> page in the Debian wiki and pointing users to there? :-)

No, perhaps a good idea, anyway, I suspect that users won't read
billions of manuals, Wikies etc..

> It's not about "load" but "frequency speed" and my micro reduces its
> cycles from 2.8 Ghz. (normal run) to 2.0 Ghz (idle+ondemad) which I
> prefer. Why wasting cpu cycles and increasing the heat of the whole
> system if I don't really need all that power all the time?

There's no big difference for the load and the load will cause the heat.
I'm using the GNOME applet anyway. Before users run into issues
'performance' as default for everybody would be the better choice.

Is there any CPU where CPU frequency scaling really makes a difference
for load?

> Well, not at all. The moral of the story was that most of the linux users
> like to know what are they doing, they like digging into their system's
> guts and enjoy learning while windows users are more accostumed to things
> work "magically" :-)

And there are billions of users who tried to switch from Windows to
Linux just regarding to ethical reasons or better software regarding to
their needs and they all need to use Windows, because the Linux
community don't care about people who only wish to use a tool like
Linux.

Regards,

Ralf


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Old 06-14-2011, 02:54 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Is there any valid reason to add an idiotic script to /etc/init.d by an default Debian install that only cause a PITA?

On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 16:16:38 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> On Tue, 2011-06-14 at 13:53 +0000, Camaleón wrote:
>
>> But that's a known issue, right? Or at least is not different from
>> other problems that any user which requires a specific/fine grained
>> setup or tweaks may experience.
>
> Yes and yes.
>
>> But then you are enforcing a cpu frequency policy that can cause
>> problems to the majority of the users... are you suggesting that?
>
> What kind of problems?

With todays clock speeds you may care about overheating. While you can
expect servers to be usually well cooled you may be more cautious when it
comes to desktops and notebooks. And having the latter always running to
their highest clock speed can lead you to unforeseen restarts.

>> > Yes, but not everybody knows about CPU frequency scaling and those
>> > issues, so you'll read about mysterious audible glitches for the
>> > audio signal all the time on audio mailing lists.
>>
>> Err, if that's the only annoyance, have you ever considered to write a
>> page in the Debian wiki and pointing users to there? :-)
>
> No, perhaps a good idea, anyway, I suspect that users won't read
> billions of manuals, Wikies etc..

If a user is instructed to read a documment but he/she refuses to do it
(because of laziness or whatever excuse they give) then it's up to them.
Users have to read, being linux or windows users, we cannot expect all of
our problems being automatically solved without moving a finger... err, I
mean, an eye :-)

>> It's not about "load" but "frequency speed" and my micro reduces its
>> cycles from 2.8 Ghz. (normal run) to 2.0 Ghz (idle+ondemad) which I
>> prefer. Why wasting cpu cycles and increasing the heat of the whole
>> system if I don't really need all that power all the time?
>
> There's no big difference for the load and the load will cause the heat.
> I'm using the GNOME applet anyway. Before users run into issues
> 'performance' as default for everybody would be the better choice.

Why "better"? :-)

A mobile user may prefer to have a more conservative scaling frequency
and neither "ondemand" nor "performace" governor is "better" for him.

> Is there any CPU where CPU frequency scaling really makes a difference
> for load?

Define "load" in your context. Choosing a CPU frequency is a user issue,
what is fine with me it can be bad for you so the default setting has to
be the more fair and that's "ondemand" ("powersave" and "performance" are
the more agressive profiles).

>> Well, not at all. The moral of the story was that most of the linux
>> users like to know what are they doing, they like digging into their
>> system's guts and enjoy learning while windows users are more
>> accostumed to things work "magically" :-)
>
> And there are billions of users who tried to switch from Windows to
> Linux just regarding to ethical reasons or better software regarding to
> their needs and they all need to use Windows, because the Linux
> community don't care about people who only wish to use a tool like
> Linux.

Saying that is a bit unfair >:-)

You said "hey, let's make users to compile their own kernel" but reject a
default policy that can be easily modified? Who is the one that now
doesn't "care about people who only wish to use a tool like Linux"?

Greetings,

--
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