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Old 04-05-2011, 07:00 PM
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr."
 
Default Ubuntu Versions (was: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)

On 2011-04-05 12:24:39 Matt Harrison wrote:
>On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
><bss@iguanasuicide.net> wrote:
>> On 2011-04-05 12:07:16 George Standish wrote:
>>>On 05/04/11 01:04 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
>>>> On 2011-04-05 11:51:13 George Standish wrote:
>>>>>> If you need more support than Debian provides and<= 5 years, install
>>>>>> an Ubuntu LTS.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just to clarify, Ubuntu LTS releases are 5 years for the server
>>>>> version, 3 years for the desktop version.
>>>>
>>>> They use the same repositories. What exactly is the difference?
>>>
>>>I'm really not sure.
>>>
>> From
>> <http://www.canonical.com/sites/default/files/active/Top_10_ServerQA_Eng_W
>> P_AW_0.pdf>:
>> 10. Can I install server packages on an Ubuntu Desktop
>> installation and vice versa?
>> Yes – Ubuntu’s flexibility makes it easy. The Ubuntu software repositories
>> do not isolate packages to particular types of deployments. All the server
>> software in the repositories is available to the desktop user, and all the
>> desktop software can also be installed on the server.
>>
>> tl;dr: No difference.
>
>Are we seriously going to argue about which version of Ubuntu is
>supported for how long?

I think it is reasonable to discuss, if a little OT.

>Who cares?

Someone that doesn't necessarily want to upgrade on Debian's schedule. With
Ubuntu, you can get 5 years, as opposed to Debian's ~3 years. With SLE* you
can get 10 years. I'm not sure about RHEL, but I think it is roughly a SLE*
timeframe.

There are a number of organizations that would prefer to put hardware out in
the field with a certain image and only apply security and important bug fixes
for the life of the hardware. If the hardware refresh cycle is 3 years, you
can always install the latest Ubuntu LTS at deployment time and be good for 3
years; that's not true of Debian (e.g. deployments in fall 2010). If the
hardware refresh cycle is 5 years, you can always install the latest SLES + SP
and be good for 5 years; that's not true of Ubuntu (e.g. deployments that
don't fall more or less exactly on an LTS release date).

I prefer Debian, but I haven't had to manage 100s or 1000s of installations
where my main IT staff only has remote access or tried to completely script a
change from oldstable -> stable. I'm sure it's possible, but it probably
requires more work than just updating the systems within the same release.
I'm also not that interested is chipping on an effort to maintain Debian
oldstable any longer than it is supported now. For my purposes, the 1 year
time frame given to execute an oldstable -> stable transition has always been
more than enough.

I should also note that Debian's support is (usually) for every package in
main. This is a much larger selection of software that is in Ubuntu's
main+restricted or within the SLE* support matrix. So, there are definitely
cases where Debian's support is best-in-class.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =.
bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/
 
Old 04-05-2011, 07:03 PM
Matt Harrison
 
Default Ubuntu Versions (was: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
<bss@iguanasuicide.net> wrote:
> On 2011-04-05 12:24:39 Matt Harrison wrote:
>>On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
>><bss@iguanasuicide.net> wrote:
>>> On 2011-04-05 12:07:16 George Standish wrote:
>>>>On 05/04/11 01:04 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
>>>>> On 2011-04-05 11:51:13 George Standish wrote:
>>>>>>> If you need more support than Debian provides and<= 5 years, install
>>>>>>> an Ubuntu LTS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just to clarify, Ubuntu LTS releases are 5 years for the server
>>>>>> version, 3 years for the desktop version.
>>>>>
>>>>> They use the same repositories. *What exactly is the difference?
>>>>
>>>>I'm really not sure.
>>>>
>>> From
>>> <http://www.canonical.com/sites/default/files/active/Top_10_ServerQA_Eng_W
>>> P_AW_0.pdf>:
>>> 10. Can I install server packages on an Ubuntu Desktop
>>> installation and vice versa?
>>> Yes – Ubuntu’s flexibility makes it easy. The Ubuntu software repositories
>>> do not isolate packages to particular types of deployments. All the server
>>> software in the repositories is available to the desktop user, and all the
>>> desktop software can also be installed on the server.
>>>
>>> tl;dr: No difference.
>>
>>Are we seriously going to argue about which version of Ubuntu is
>>supported for how long?
>
> I think it is reasonable to discuss, if a little OT.
>
>>Who cares?
>
> Someone that doesn't necessarily want to upgrade on Debian's schedule. *With
> Ubuntu, you can get 5 years, as opposed to Debian's ~3 years. *With SLE* you
> can get 10 years. *I'm not sure about RHEL, but I think it is roughly a SLE*
> timeframe.
>
> There are a number of organizations that would prefer to put hardware out in
> the field with a certain image and only apply security and important bug fixes
> for the life of the hardware. *If the hardware refresh cycle is 3 years, you
> can always install the latest Ubuntu LTS at deployment time and be good for 3
> years; that's not true of Debian (e.g. deployments in fall 2010). *If the
> hardware refresh cycle is 5 years, you can always install the latest SLES + SP
> and be good for 5 years; that's not true of Ubuntu (e.g. deployments that
> don't fall more or less exactly on an LTS release date).
>
> I prefer Debian, but I haven't had to manage 100s or 1000s of installations
> where my main IT staff only has remote access or tried to completely script a
> change from oldstable -> stable. *I'm sure it's possible, but it probably
> requires more work than just updating the systems within the same release.
> I'm also not that interested is chipping on an effort to maintain Debian
> oldstable any longer than it is supported now. *For my purposes, the 1 year
> time frame given to execute an oldstable -> stable transition has always been
> more than enough.
>
> I should also note that Debian's support is (usually) for every package in
> main. *This is a much larger selection of software that is in Ubuntu's
> main+restricted or within the SLE* support matrix. *So, there are definitely
> cases where Debian's support is best-in-class.
> --
> Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. * * * * * * * * * ,= ,-_-. =.
> bss@iguanasuicide.net * * * * * * * * * ((_/)o o(\_))
> ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy * * * * `-'(. .)`-'
> http://iguanasuicide.net/ * * * * * * * * * *\_/
>

All fine points....here you go:
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users


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Old 04-05-2011, 08:14 PM
Freeman
 
Default Ubuntu Versions (was: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)

On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 03:03:41PM -0400, Matt Harrison wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
> <bss@iguanasuicide.net> wrote:
> > On 2011-04-05 12:24:39 Matt Harrison wrote:
> >>
> >>Are we seriously going to argue about which version of Ubuntu is
> >>supported for how long?
> >
> > I think it is reasonable to discuss, if a little OT.
> >
> >>Who cares?
> >
> > Someone that doesn't necessarily want to upgrade on Debian's schedule. *With
> > Ubuntu, you can get 5 years, as opposed to Debian's ~3 years. *With SLE* you
> > can get 10 years. *I'm not sure about RHEL, but I think it is roughly a SLE*
> > timeframe.
> >

. . .

>
> All fine points....here you go:
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
>
>

As regards Debian users, the pros and cons of another distro vis-a-vis their
system is legit.

As regards Ubuntu users seeking Debian advice, I think they should establish
a debuntu-users list. But that is irrelevant to this thread.


--
Regards,
Freeman

"Microsoft is not the answer. Microsoft is the question. NO (or Linux) is the
answer." --Somebody


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Old 04-05-2011, 10:37 PM
Mark
 
Default Ubuntu Versions (was: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Freeman <hewho7@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 03:03:41PM -0400, Matt Harrison wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.

> <bss@iguanasuicide.net> wrote:

> > On 2011-04-05 12:24:39 Matt Harrison wrote:

> >>

> >>Are we seriously going to argue about which version of Ubuntu is

> >>supported for how long?

> >

> > I think it is reasonable to discuss, if a little OT.

> >

> >>Who cares?

> >

> > Someone that doesn't necessarily want to upgrade on Debian's schedule. *With

> > Ubuntu, you can get 5 years, as opposed to Debian's ~3 years. *With SLE* you

> > can get 10 years. *I'm not sure about RHEL, but I think it is roughly a SLE*

> > timeframe.

> >



. . .



>

> All fine points....here you go:

> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users

>

>



As regards Debian users, the pros and cons of another distro vis-a-vis their

system is legit.



As regards Ubuntu users seeking Debian advice, I think they should establish

a debuntu-users list. *But that is irrelevant to this thread.

Well, there is no interest in me or the people I provide support for, to move to Ubuntu, although I can see where this conversation would have merit to someone.* I received a few responses answering my original question, so thank you for those.* Guess the way to go is with* upgrading.* For all its flaws, one nice thing about Windows is that it has a 10-year (14-year for XP) support cycle, so while there may be service packs, etc., to the end user, the interface is virtually the same for 10 years. I realize that not upgrading/getting more goodies/etc. is not the preference of most people on the list, but for some Debian users it might be.* It's an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" type thing.


Mark
 
Old 04-05-2011, 10:48 PM
Tom H
 
Default Ubuntu Versions (was: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
<bss@iguanasuicide.net> wrote:
>
> 10. Can I install server packages on an Ubuntu Desktop installation
> and vice versa?
>
> Yes – Ubuntu’s flexibility makes it easy. The Ubuntu software repositories
> do not isolate packages to particular types of deployments. All the server
> software in the repositories is available to the desktop user, and all the
> desktop software can also be installed on the server.

The difference between desktop and server is that the server kernel
config is tailored to servers (CONFIG_DEFAULT_IOSCHED for example)
and, since and including 9.10, only has an amd64 version.


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Old 04-05-2011, 11:02 PM
Tom H
 
Default Ubuntu Versions (was: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
<bss@iguanasuicide.net> wrote:
>
> Someone that doesn't necessarily want to upgrade on Debian's schedule. *With
> Ubuntu, you can get 5 years, as opposed to Debian's ~3 years. *With SLE* you
> can get 10 years. *I'm not sure about RHEL, but I think it is roughly a SLE*
> timeframe.

You can get 10 years with RHEL but 7 is standard.

The first 4 have "full" support.

The 5th hardware support is lessened.

The 6th and 7th there are only updates for important security problems
and bugs and there are no more SPs.


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Old 04-05-2011, 11:51 PM
Freeman
 
Default Ubuntu Versions (was: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)

On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 03:37:16PM -0700, Mark wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Freeman <hewho7@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 03:03:41PM -0400, Matt Harrison wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > All fine points....here you go:
> > > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-users
> > >
> > >
> >
> > As regards Debian users, the pros and cons of another distro vis-a-vis
> > their
> > system is legit.
> >
> > As regards Ubuntu users seeking Debian advice, I think they should
> > establish
> > a debuntu-users list. But that is irrelevant to this thread.
> >
>
> Well, there is no interest in me or the people I provide support for, to
> move to Ubuntu, although I can see where this conversation would have merit
> to someone. I received a few responses answering my original question, so
> thank you for those. Guess the way to go is with upgrading. For all its
> flaws, one nice thing about Windows is that it has a 10-year (14-year for
> XP) support cycle, so while there may be service packs, etc., to the end
> user, the interface is virtually the same for 10 years. I realize that not
> upgrading/getting more goodies/etc. is not the preference of most people on
> the list, but for some Debian users it might be. It's an "if it ain't
> broke, don't fix it" type thing.
>

I am feeling your pain.

After 1.5 testing cycles, I have tried to follow squeeze into stable.

But now I am remembering that my testing cycle idea was to have a sort of
rolling release. I would put off upgrades of touchy sounding packages
until I was sure of negotiating a good outcome. I would store versions
with apt-cacher so I wouldn't have to go looking for packages to back out of
problems. I wouldn't let myself feel inclined to immediately upgrade
everything that presented.

But I still hit bumps in the road with my old Radeon and some sound issues.
I still found myself under upgrade pressure from the shear number of packages
migrating to testing. I still had to analyze dependency knots from being
spread all over the release schedule.

Now I have sid & unstable creeping more and more into my "stable" system
that was only suppose to diversify to the extent of stable-updates,
backports, multimedia and a few choice packages.

If I stay with squeeze to the bitter end, I will have 5 years. But, 2 of
them, I spent more time working on my system than using it.

And, in 3 years I am looking at a big upgrade, potentially with issues I
have become unfamiliar with, and an undetermined learning period, possibly
with a switch away from Gnome.

My lack of decision on this is netting me a stable system with increasing
amounts of sid and unstable, not to mention a little oldstable.

--
Regards,
Freeman

"Microsoft is not the answer. Microsoft is the question. NO (or Linux) is the
answer." --Somebody


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Old 04-06-2011, 12:50 AM
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr."
 
Default Ubuntu Versions (was: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)

In <BANLkTi=99CW8HDkX1ozSM1g8Z+Y+Ay7EXw@mail.gmail.co m>, Tom H wrote:
>On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
><bss@iguanasuicide.net> wrote:
>> Someone that doesn't necessarily want to upgrade on Debian's schedule.
>> With Ubuntu, you can get 5 years, as opposed to Debian's ~3 years. With
>> SLE* you can get 10 years. I'm not sure about RHEL, but I think it is
>> roughly a SLE* timeframe.
>
>You can get 10 years with RHEL but 7 is standard.
>
>The first 4 have "full" support.
>
>The 5th hardware support is lessened.
>
>The 6th and 7th there are only updates for important security problems
>and bugs and there are no more SPs.

Ah. That's almost exactly the SLES 10 schedule. Thanks for the info!
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =.
bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/
 
Old 04-06-2011, 11:17 PM
Rob Owens
 
Default Ubuntu Versions (was: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)

On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 03:37:16PM -0700, Mark wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Freeman <hewho7@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 03:03:41PM -0400, Matt Harrison wrote:
> > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.
> > > <bss@iguanasuicide.net> wrote:
> > > > On 2011-04-05 12:24:39 Matt Harrison wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>Are we seriously going to argue about which version of Ubuntu is
> > > >>supported for how long?
> > > >
> > > > I think it is reasonable to discuss, if a little OT.
> > > >
> > > >>Who cares?
> > > >
> > > > Someone that doesn't necessarily want to upgrade on Debian's schedule.
> > With
> > > > Ubuntu, you can get 5 years, as opposed to Debian's ~3 years. With
> > SLE* you
> > > > can get 10 years. I'm not sure about RHEL, but I think it is roughly a
> > SLE*
> > > > timeframe.
> > > >
With Ubuntu (I believe) you get "5 years for a server" and "3 years for
a desktop" if you go with an LTS release. What packages are server
packages and what ones are desktop packages? I don't know. It would be
nice to see a list somewhere.

-Rob


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Old 04-06-2011, 11:39 PM
Tom H
 
Default Ubuntu Versions (was: Let's say you never want to upgrade from Lenny...)

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 7:17 PM, Rob Owens <rowens@ptd.net> wrote:
>
> With Ubuntu (I believe) you get "5 years for a server" and "3 years for
> a desktop" if you go with an LTS release. What packages are server
> packages and what ones are desktop packages? I don't know.*It would be
> nice to see a list somewhere.

Server = X-less so WM-less, DE-less, GUI-less


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