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Old 01-01-2011, 10:26 AM
Daniel Andersson
 
Default Why is Evolution and Epiphany now a part of gnome-core?

Hi

I'm running Debian Squeeze, and I have only gnome-core installed so that
I would not have Evolution or Epiphany installed since I do not use them.


But it seems that both Evolution and Epiphany has been moved from
gnome-desktop-environment to gnome-core. They were not a part of
gnome-core until I ran an update yesterday (but only Evolution got
installed automatically). So why have they been moved?



Best regards
Daniel Andersson


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Old 01-01-2011, 10:50 AM
Sven Joachim
 
Default Why is Evolution and Epiphany now a part of gnome-core?

On 2011-01-01 12:26 +0100, Daniel Andersson wrote:

> I'm running Debian Squeeze, and I have only gnome-core installed so
> that I would not have Evolution or Epiphany installed since I do not
> use them.
>
> But it seems that both Evolution and Epiphany has been moved from
> gnome-desktop-environment to gnome-core. They were not a part of
> gnome-core until I ran an update yesterday (but only Evolution got
> installed automatically). So why have they been moved?

Basically because gnome-desktop-environment is too big to fit on CD 1.
See bug #608098 for more information, especially
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=608098#31.

Sven


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Old 01-02-2011, 08:08 PM
Mike Bird
 
Default Why is Evolution and Epiphany now a part of gnome-core?

On Sat January 1 2011 03:50:54 Sven Joachim wrote:
> On 2011-01-01 12:26 +0100, Daniel Andersson wrote:
> > I'm running Debian Squeeze, and I have only gnome-core installed so
> > that I would not have Evolution or Epiphany installed since I do not
> > use them.
> >
> > But it seems that both Evolution and Epiphany has been moved from
> > gnome-desktop-environment to gnome-core. They were not a part of
> > gnome-core until I ran an update yesterday (but only Evolution got
> > installed automatically). So why have they been moved?
>
> Basically because gnome-desktop-environment is too big to fit on CD 1.
> See bug #608098 for more information, especially
> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=608098#31.

Creating a new package to depend upon evolution and ephiphany
and gnome-core would be a less harmful solution.

--Mike Bird


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Old 01-17-2011, 04:16 PM
T o n g
 
Default Why is Evolution and Epiphany now a part of gnome-core?

On Sun, 02 Jan 2011 13:08:36 -0800, Mike Bird wrote:

>> > I'm running Debian Squeeze, and I have only gnome-core installed so
>> > that I would not have Evolution or Epiphany installed since I do not
>> > use them.

Me too.

>> Basically because gnome-desktop-environment is too big to fit on CD 1.
>> See bug #608098 for more information, especially
>> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=608098#31.

That seems to me an absurd reason.

So only 3 of us in the entire Debian world think this way? Re-quoting OP
of bug 608098:

,-----
| The massive migration of dependencies from
| gnome-desktop-environment to gnome-core is extremely undesirable,
| because it spoils the usefulness that gnome-core used to have in
| pulling just enough packages to have a basic GNOME
| environment. Now, instead, it pulls WAY too many packages and
| leaves the user without any simple method for installing basic
| GNOME components.
`-----

I still think it make perfect sense, and a legitimated request.

> Creating a new package to depend upon evolution and ephiphany and
> gnome-core would be a less harmful solution.

Yeah, but look at what the maintainer said:

,-----
| The gnome-core package is not here to fulfill the needs of a given
| user.
|
| If you need a specific set of packages, please make your metapackages
| yourself.
`-----

well... what I can do, huh?
Nobody care about this?

--
Tong (remove underscore(s) to reply)
http://xpt.sourceforge.net/techdocs/
http://xpt.sourceforge.net/tools/


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Old 01-17-2011, 04:26 PM
Hal Vaughan
 
Default Why is Evolution and Epiphany now a part of gnome-core?

On Jan 17, 2011, at 12:16 PM, T o n g wrote:

> On Sun, 02 Jan 2011 13:08:36 -0800, Mike Bird wrote:
>
>>>> I'm running Debian Squeeze, and I have only gnome-core installed so
>>>> that I would not have Evolution or Epiphany installed since I do not
>>>> use them.
>
> Me too.
>
>>> Basically because gnome-desktop-environment is too big to fit on CD 1.
>>> See bug #608098 for more information, especially
>>> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=608098#31.
>
> That seems to me an absurd reason.
>
> So only 3 of us in the entire Debian world think this way? Re-quoting OP
> of bug 608098:
>
> ,-----
> | The massive migration of dependencies from
> | gnome-desktop-environment to gnome-core is extremely undesirable,
> | because it spoils the usefulness that gnome-core used to have in
> | pulling just enough packages to have a basic GNOME
> | environment. Now, instead, it pulls WAY too many packages and
> | leaves the user without any simple method for installing basic
> | GNOME components.
> `-----
>
> I still think it make perfect sense, and a legitimated request.
>
>> Creating a new package to depend upon evolution and ephiphany and
>> gnome-core would be a less harmful solution.
>
> Yeah, but look at what the maintainer said:
>
> ,-----
> | The gnome-core package is not here to fulfill the needs of a given
> | user.
> |
> | If you need a specific set of packages, please make your metapackages
> | yourself.
> `-----
>
> well... what I can do, huh?
> Nobody care about this?

This is an example of why I've been moving away from FOSS. Someone makes a good point in a bug report and the programmer/developer/maintainer throws it back in his face, which allows the bug to be closed out quickly.

I think it's a legitimate concern and just because one person pointed it out does not mean it only effects one person.

Yes, I care about it. I usually run Debian for headless systems that don't use X or a DE, but when I'm using a GUI on Debian, and need to use a Gnome program, there's much more sense to it requiring and installing the bare minimum of what it needs than installing a lot of bloat. Isn't the "Debian way" more about allowing customization and forcing as little as possible on the users or sys-admins?



Hal

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Old 01-17-2011, 04:48 PM
Carl Fink
 
Default Why is Evolution and Epiphany now a part of gnome-core?

On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 12:26:17PM -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote:

> This is an example of why I've been moving away from FOSS. Someone makes
> a good point in a bug report and the programmer/developer/maintainer
> throws it back in his face, which allows the bug to be closed out quickly.
>
> I think it's a legitimate concern and just because one person pointed it
> out does not mean it only effects one person.

It's ridiculous, and as you write unfortunately typical. I recall getting
similar "Sorry, I don't care" stuff from developers as far back as when
StarOffice was first freed.

What to do? Well, in my case, I switch to different FOSS. So ... I guess I
move to something other than Debian. Oh well.
--
Carl Fink nitpicking@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!


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Old 01-17-2011, 05:25 PM
Hal Vaughan
 
Default Why is Evolution and Epiphany now a part of gnome-core?

On Jan 17, 2011, at 12:48 PM, Carl Fink wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 12:26:17PM -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote:
>
>> This is an example of why I've been moving away from FOSS. Someone makes
>> a good point in a bug report and the programmer/developer/maintainer
>> throws it back in his face, which allows the bug to be closed out quickly.
>>
>> I think it's a legitimate concern and just because one person pointed it
>> out does not mean it only effects one person.
>
> It's ridiculous, and as you write unfortunately typical. I recall getting
> similar "Sorry, I don't care" stuff from developers as far back as when
> StarOffice was first freed.
>
> What to do? Well, in my case, I switch to different FOSS. So ... I guess I
> move to something other than Debian. Oh well.

I rarely file bug reports for FOSS anymore due to responses like this. But I have started communicating with people in some projects when something is wrong (either on the forum or on mailing lists). I tried to explain an issue when I filed a bug with OOo about margins, but the responses showed they were not concerned with listening to the issue, only with saying, "We're right, so go away."

At one point I was trying to design a web interface that would be easy to customize for LIRC so you could control your home devices through LIRC from a webpage you could pull up on your smart phone or on a PDA and asked for help. I got nothing. I asked again, knowing that the people who were behind LIRC were on the list. I finally left a message saying, "I wanted to add to the project and asked for help several times and was ignored or told to RTFM when I had stated the info wasn't in TFM. I've scrapped my project and LIRC devs might want to consider not ignoring help requests in the future." I watched and saw everyone say, "Well, he must have asked for help wrong." (Hey, I've read ESR's "How to Ask for Help" and found most of it common sense and I follow it.) Not one looked for my original requests to see if I was rude or anything.

I've been in discussions on MacPorts for KDE on OS X and found some helpful people, but I have to say some devs are too busy being right to listen.

I could list more, but I've seen enough cases where bug reports are met with dismissals (and often rude or condescending ones, like the one cited early in this thread) that I don't file bug reports for FOSS unless I know the project and know it's worth the time to file one.

I think this is a classic case of some devs being so into themselves and their projects that they don't realize they come across as Sheldon Cooper when they ignore others.

I retired at 45, thanks to my business, which was based on my own custom software. The first program I released to run on my clients' computers was in Java, within 6 months after I learned Java and OOP. In the next 18 months that version was in use, I had fewer than 5 bug reports (because I tested the hell out of it before releasing it). But I had to respond to each bug report and usually had the fix out within 12 hours. I would have lost a lot of money if I had been as dismissive of bug reports as some developers are.




Hal

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Old 01-17-2011, 05:36 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Why is Evolution and Epiphany now a part of gnome-core?

On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 12:26:17 -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote:

(I'm going to play here the role of the devil's advocate... oh, well)

> This is an example of why I've been moving away from FOSS. Someone
> makes a good point in a bug report and the
> programmer/developer/maintainer throws it back in his face, which allows
> the bug to be closed out quickly.


The more voices defending a point of view, the better for the maintainer/
developer "in power" to revisit his/her policy for the metapackages
involved. But I can only see "one" guy (the OP) in that bug report
complaining about the problem he has detected...


> I think it's a legitimate concern and just because one person pointed it
> out does not mean it only effects one person.


You also need to care about the DD outlook and his point of view,
explained there (copy/paste from message #31):

***
(...) in squeeze, the gnome-session package now
depends on the basic components that are actually needed for running a
GNOME session. Since this change was made, I hadn’t known what to do of
gnome-core, as it had became obsolete. The size issue of fitting GNOME
on the first CD gave an obvious answer to what this metapackage should
become.

So in short:
* gnome-core = GNOME installation designed to fit on one CD
* gnome-desktop-environment ≈ GNOME as defined by upstream
* gnome = full GNOME installation for the default installation
***

This approach can be further discussed, of course, and additional/
alternative solutions could have been presented in the bug report, but
again, there are no more complaints on developers' decission :-(

(note that everybody can reopen a bug)


> Yes, I care about it. I usually run Debian for headless systems that
> don't use X or a DE, but when I'm using a GUI on Debian, and need to use
> a Gnome program, there's much more sense to it requiring and installing
> the bare minimum of what it needs than installing a lot of bloat. Isn't
> the "Debian way" more about allowing customization and forcing as little
> as possible on the users or sys-admins?


I would like to stick up for Debian here.

Debian is a distribution that tends to split packages a lot (and I mean
*a lot*) which I really think _is a good practice_ because it gives both,
plain users (by means of metapackages) and admins (by cherry picking just
the needed packages) the full control on their systems.


And Debian's GNOME (precisely GNOME) has 3 different metapackages that
can be used to get this DE installed... three options!! that is
unthinkable in other distributions available out there which just provide
"one" DE metapackage and afterwards the user has to remove the components
he/she does not want at all.


With this writing I only wanted to note that sometimes we (users) are
requesting too much from developers/maintainers and while OTOH
complaining about a decission is the right path to go (at least IMO) we
should also show a bit more empathy and put ourselves in the place of the
person that is putting three different packaging flavors (three different
alternatives) for we (the users) to decide what to install.


I'm sure metapackages can be improved (of course!) and I would also like
to see the installer asking me what e-mail server I prefer instead
installing Exim by default but again, there is the "preseed" option and
there is the option of adding Postfix later, so that is fine with me.


I also like the fact that GNOME is the default DE in Debian but here we
also have the KDE team making a good job in delivering KDE users the
better experience with this DE.


In brief, I think Debian delivers a quasi perfect 50/50 ratio between
user's own preferences and easy customization.

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 01-17-2011, 05:44 PM
Mike Bird
 
Default Why is Evolution and Epiphany now a part of gnome-core?

On Mon January 17 2011 09:26:17 Hal Vaughan wrote:
> This is an example of why I've been moving away from FOSS. Someone makes a
> good point in a bug report and the programmer/developer/maintainer throws
> it back in his face, which allows the bug to be closed out quickly.

Ill-considered decisions seem to have become increasingly prevalent
among a small subset of Debian Developers. For example, a critical
but easily fixed bug was recently closed without fix or comment,
apparently based on personalities rather than technicalities[1].

Fortunately the ill-considered decisions of this minority are public,
which makes them available for consideration by their potential
future employers. Hopefully this mechanism will correct the problem.

--Mike Bird

[1] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?msg=7;bug=610185


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Old 01-17-2011, 06:01 PM
Mike Bird
 
Default Why is Evolution and Epiphany now a part of gnome-core?

On Mon January 17 2011 10:36:57 Camalen wrote:
> * gnome-core = GNOME installation designed to fit on one CD

That is a CHANGE to the definition of gnome-core, which affects
many users who have gnome-core installed but not gnome-desktop-
-environment.

Here is the Lenny definition of the package:

These are the core components of the GNOME Desktop environment, an
intuitive and attractive desktop.
.
This package depends on a basic set of programs, including a file
manager, an image viewer, a text editor and other basic tools.

A DD changed gnome-core's dependencies instead of making the same
changes to the CD's package list, and then was too lazy to fix his
mistake.

And thus one lazy DD creates headaches for thousands of sysadmins.

--Mike Bird


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