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Old 11-09-2010, 11:08 AM
Klistvud
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

Howdie, fellow Debianites!

As you probably know, Ubuntu is planning to replace X11 with the
Wayland Display Management System, and replace Gnome with Unity. X11
and Gnome will still be in the Ubuntu repos, at least initially, but
they won't be the Ubuntu default anymore.


What are your opinions on the matter, will this have repercussions for
Debian? *Should* it?


--
Cheerio,

Klistvud
http://bufferoverflow.tiddlyspot.com
Certifiable Loonix User #481801 Please reply to the list, not to
me.



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Old 11-09-2010, 11:19 AM
Camaleón
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 13:08:05 +0100, Klistvud wrote:

> Howdie, fellow Debianites!
>
> As you probably know, Ubuntu is planning to replace X11 with the Wayland
> Display Management System, and replace Gnome with Unity. X11 and Gnome
> will still be in the Ubuntu repos, at least initially, but they won't be
> the Ubuntu default anymore.
>
> What are your opinions on the matter, will this have repercussions for
> Debian? *Should* it?

I hope it's just an Ubuntu trend and not affecting/spreading to other
distros >:-)

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 11-09-2010, 11:33 AM
Michael Schmitt
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

is there an urgent and important reason for a replacement?
pro and cons ?
I myself would prefer to keep X11

2010/11/9 Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com>

On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 13:08:05 +0100, Klistvud wrote:



> Howdie, fellow Debianites!

>

> As you probably know, Ubuntu is planning to replace X11 with the Wayland

> Display Management System, and replace Gnome with Unity. X11 and Gnome

> will still be in the Ubuntu repos, at least initially, but they won't be

> the Ubuntu default anymore.

>

> What are your opinions on the matter, will this have repercussions for

> Debian? *Should* it?



I hope it's just an Ubuntu trend and not affecting/spreading to other

distros >:-)



Greetings,



--

Camaleón





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Old 11-09-2010, 11:51 AM
Paul Cartwright
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

On 11/09/2010 07:08 AM, Klistvud wrote:
As you
probably know, Ubuntu is planning to replace X11 with the Wayland
Display Management System, and replace Gnome with Unity. X11 and
Gnome will still be in the Ubuntu repos, at least initially, but
they won't be the Ubuntu default anymore.




What are your opinions on the matter, will this have repercussions
for Debian? *Should* it?



I just looked at this page, a review of sorts..

http://www.webupd8.org/2010/05/taking-ubuntu-unity-interface-for-test.html



doesn't sound like a good replacement for such a robust desktop as
gnome.. I personally like LXDE.. but it has problems also. For a
Debian Light version/Netbook, MAYBE.. but I don't have a netbook



--
Paul Cartwright
Registered Linux user # 367800
 
Old 11-09-2010, 11:53 AM
Nate Bargmann
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

* On 2010 09 Nov 06:09 -0600, Klistvud wrote:
> Howdie, fellow Debianites!
>
> As you probably know, Ubuntu is planning to replace X11 with the
> Wayland Display Management System, and replace Gnome with Unity. X11
> and Gnome will still be in the Ubuntu repos, at least initially, but
> they won't be the Ubuntu default anymore.
>
> What are your opinions on the matter, will this have repercussions
> for Debian? *Should* it?

While there is a lot of cross pollination between Debian and Ubuntu,
they remain separate projects with differing goals. Ubuntu using
Unity for its desktop shell will have no effect on Debian's default
desktop installation. Unity will likely be available in the Debian
repos, assuming the licensing is compatible, of course. I suspect the
same will be the case with Wayland.

I'm not going to join the shrill chorus rebuking Ubuntu/Canonical for
their decision. I'm looking forward to how this will pan out as I think
there is room for some experimentation amongst distributions.

- Nate >>

--

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://n0nb.us/index.html


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Old 11-09-2010, 11:56 AM
Tom H
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 7:19 AM, Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 13:08:05 +0100, Klistvud wrote:
>>
>> As you probably know, Ubuntu is planning to replace X11 with the Wayland
>> Display Management System, and replace Gnome with Unity. X11 and Gnome
>> will still be in the Ubuntu repos, at least initially, but they won't be
>> the Ubuntu default anymore.
>>
>> What are your opinions on the matter, will this have repercussions for
>> Debian? *Should* it?
>
> I hope it's just an Ubuntu trend and not affecting/spreading to other
> distros >:-)

Re Unity:

Debian hasn't adopted upstart so why should it adopt unity? I'm sure
that it'll end up in the Debian repos for those of us who want to
try/use it. It would be fun (perverse, sadistic fun though!) to follow
any debian-devel thread started by someone proposing to make unity the
Debian default.

Re Wayland:

>From a Wayland FAQ:

<start>
Why fork the X server?

It's not an X server and not a fork. It's a minimal server that lets
clients communicate GEM buffers and information about updates to those
buffers to a compositor.

...

Is wayland replacing the X server?

It could replace X as the native Linux graphics server, but I'm sure X
will always be there on the side. I imagine that Wayland and X will
coexist in two ways on a Linux desktop:

1. Wayland is a graphics multiplexer for a number of X servers.
Linux today typically only uses one X server for GDM and the user
session, but we'll probably see that move to a dedicated GDM X server,
an X server for user sessions (spawning more on the fly as more users
log in) and maybe a dedicated screensaver/unlock X server. Right now
we rely on VT switching to move between X servers, and it's horrible.
We have no control over what the transitions look like and the VT
ioctls are pretty bad. Wayland provides a solution here, in that it
can host several X servers as they push their root window to Wayland
as surfaces. The compositor in this case will be a dedicated session
switcher that will cross-fade between X servers or spin them on a
cube.

2. Further down the road we run a user session natively under
Wayland with clients written for Wayland. There will still (always)
be X applications to run, but we now run these under a root-less X
server that is itself a client of the Wayland server. This will
inject the X windows into the Wayland session as native looking
clients. The session Wayland server can run as a nested Wayland
server under the system Wayland server described above, maybe even
side by side with X sessions.

There's a number of intermediate steps, such as running the GNOME
screen saver as a native wayland client, for example, or running a
composited X desktop, where the compositor is a Wayland client,
pushing the composited desktop to Wayland.
</end>

So the stories about X being ripped out and replaced in Ubuntu
11.10/12.04/... might not be entirely accurate.


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Old 11-09-2010, 12:53 PM
Mark Allums
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

On 11/9/2010 6:56 AM, Tom H wrote:

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 7:19 AM, Camaleón<noelamac@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 13:08:05 +0100, Klistvud wrote:


As you probably know, Ubuntu is planning to replace X11 with the Wayland
Display Management System, and replace Gnome with Unity. X11 and Gnome
will still be in the Ubuntu repos, at least initially, but they won't be
the Ubuntu default anymore.

What are your opinions on the matter, will this have repercussions for
Debian? *Should* it?


I hope it's just an Ubuntu trend and not affecting/spreading to other
distros>:-)


Re Unity:

Debian hasn't adopted upstart so why should it adopt unity? I'm sure
that it'll end up in the Debian repos for those of us who want to
try/use it. It would be fun (perverse, sadistic fun though!) to follow
any debian-devel thread started by someone proposing to make unity the
Debian default.

Re Wayland:


From a Wayland FAQ:


<start>
Why fork the X server?

It's not an X server and not a fork. It's a minimal server that lets
clients communicate GEM buffers and information about updates to those
buffers to a compositor.

...

Is wayland replacing the X server?

It could replace X as the native Linux graphics server, but I'm sure X
will always be there on the side. I imagine that Wayland and X will
coexist in two ways on a Linux desktop:

1. Wayland is a graphics multiplexer for a number of X servers.
Linux today typically only uses one X server for GDM and the user
session, but we'll probably see that move to a dedicated GDM X server,
an X server for user sessions (spawning more on the fly as more users
log in) and maybe a dedicated screensaver/unlock X server. Right now
we rely on VT switching to move between X servers, and it's horrible.
We have no control over what the transitions look like and the VT
ioctls are pretty bad. Wayland provides a solution here, in that it
can host several X servers as they push their root window to Wayland
as surfaces. The compositor in this case will be a dedicated session
switcher that will cross-fade between X servers or spin them on a
cube.

2. Further down the road we run a user session natively under
Wayland with clients written for Wayland. There will still (always)
be X applications to run, but we now run these under a root-less X
server that is itself a client of the Wayland server. This will
inject the X windows into the Wayland session as native looking
clients. The session Wayland server can run as a nested Wayland
server under the system Wayland server described above, maybe even
side by side with X sessions.

There's a number of intermediate steps, such as running the GNOME
screen saver as a native wayland client, for example, or running a
composited X desktop, where the compositor is a Wayland client,
pushing the composited desktop to Wayland.
</end>

So the stories about X being ripped out and replaced in Ubuntu
11.10/12.04/... might not be entirely accurate.





This post reminds me of Qubes OS by Invisible Things Lab. The goal of
Qubes is to take virtualization to the extreme by creating many small
and light, fast-booting VMs for special purposes, e.g., special VMs just
for web browsing, and even creating on-the-fly VMs called "disposable
VMs". All this is in the name of security. Qubes is a Linux-derived OS
on top on Xen.


The fly in the ointment has been X. They are adapting their GUI to
isolate X sessions. I don't know the exact way they are doing this, but
it looks like Wayland might hypothetically serve some purpose in such a
setup. It still sounds very centralized, though, adhering to the
client/server model, so I hope that security isn't an issue.


With Ubuntu 10.04, and even more so with Meercat and now with this, it
seems like Ubuntu has jumped on the crazy train. I hope they don't get
*too* far away from Debian, for dozens of reasons, but it might be
interesting to see what happens. In the meantime, I hope Debian remains
stable and reliable.


I like GNOME and LXDE, and Unity doesn't particularly excite me.
Perhaps I've become stodgy.













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Old 11-09-2010, 12:57 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 13:33:56 +0100, Michael Schmitt wrote:

> 2010/11/9 Camaleón
>
>> On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 13:08:05 +0100, Klistvud wrote:
>>
>> > What are your opinions on the matter, will this have repercussions
>> > for Debian? *Should* it?
>>
>> I hope it's just an Ubuntu trend and not affecting/spreading to other
>> distros >:-)

> is there an urgent and important reason for a replacement? pro and cons
> ?
> I myself would prefer to keep X11

I see not good technical reason for introducing the change. At least not
nowadays.

And that is one of the reasons I always fear "business decisions" (we
should not forget that Canonical is the company behind Ubuntu) because
"business decisions" can be founded on market/marketing issues and not
technicalities and the latter are the only ones that should lead to these
kind of changes.

Greetings,

--
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Old 11-09-2010, 01:12 PM
Gregory Seidman
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

On Tue, Nov 09, 2010 at 07:53:19AM -0600, Mark Allums wrote:
[...]
> With Ubuntu 10.04, and even more so with Meercat and now with this, it
> seems like Ubuntu has jumped on the crazy train. I hope they don't get
> *too* far away from Debian, for dozens of reasons, but it might be
> interesting to see what happens. In the meantime, I hope Debian remains
> stable and reliable.
>
> I like GNOME and LXDE, and Unity doesn't particularly excite me. Perhaps
> I've become stodgy.

There are three approaches to this sort of thing:

1) Everything I want and need I have. Maintain the status quo so I can use
my tools instead of adapting to changes in them.

2) If it's new, I want to play with it, try it out, and improve it. Tried
and true is great and all, but it can always be better.

3) I don't feel a pressing need for this new stuff, but if something
compelling comes along that requires it, I could be convinced.

Most people fall into that third category. I'm one of them. I use an older
version of Vim because I want to stay on (mostly) stable. The features of
the newer versions aren't quite compelling enough to go through maintaining
a testing/unstable mix. A few more useful features (especially since I use
a newer Vim on Windows and Cygwin/X11 at work), though, and I might go for
it.

When and if an application comes along that only has a Wayland/Unity GUI
that a lot of people really, really want, there will be people interested
in making Wayland and Unity work, work well, and work seamlessly on Debian.
(I'm not certain, but I have a sneaky suspicion that a lot of the drive
behind making Java easier to install and manage on Debian was Azureus, and
the desire to silence the unending stream of questions about how to get
things working as a result.) Personally, I'll wait and see.

--Greg


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Old 11-09-2010, 01:18 PM
Gregory Seidman
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

On Tue, Nov 09, 2010 at 01:57:15PM +0000, Camale?n wrote:
[...]
> I see not good technical reason for introducing the change. At least not
> nowadays.
>
> And that is one of the reasons I always fear "business decisions" (we
> should not forget that Canonical is the company behind Ubuntu) because
> "business decisions" can be founded on market/marketing issues and not
> technicalities and the latter are the only ones that should lead to these
> kind of changes.

Don't be too down on them. Wayland and Unity might really be a good path
forward. It is a grand experiment that can only be executed wholeheartedly
by fiat, and Canonical is taking it on. We in Debian-land get to reap the
benefits of Ubuntu's experiment if they get it working well, but don't have
to deal with the upheaval until a lot of the kinks are smoothed out and
don't have to touch it at all if the experiment fails. I call it win-win
(and I also call it "better you than me").

> Greetings,
> Camale??n
--Greg


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