Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?
Howdie, fellow Debianites!
As you probably know, Ubuntu is planning to replace X11 with the Wayland Display Management System, and replace Gnome with Unity. X11 and Gnome will still be in the Ubuntu repos, at least initially, but they won't be the Ubuntu default anymore. What are your opinions on the matter, will this have repercussions for Debian? *Should* it? -- Cheerio, Klistvud http://bufferoverflow.tiddlyspot.com Certifiable Loonix User #481801 Please reply to the list, not to me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org Archive: 1289304485.5656.9@compax">http://lists.debian.org/1289304485.5656.9@compax |
Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?
On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 13:08:05 +0100, Klistvud wrote:
> Howdie, fellow Debianites! > > As you probably know, Ubuntu is planning to replace X11 with the Wayland > Display Management System, and replace Gnome with Unity. X11 and Gnome > will still be in the Ubuntu repos, at least initially, but they won't be > the Ubuntu default anymore. > > What are your opinions on the matter, will this have repercussions for > Debian? *Should* it? I hope it's just an Ubuntu trend and not affecting/spreading to other distros >:-) Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org Archive: pan.2010.11.09.12.19.52@gmail.com">http://lists.debian.org/pan.2010.11.09.12.19.52@gmail.com |
Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?
is there an urgent and important reason for a replacement?
pro and cons ? I myself would prefer to keep X11 2010/11/9 Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 13:08:05 +0100, Klistvud wrote: > Howdie, fellow Debianites! > > As you probably know, Ubuntu is planning to replace X11 with the Wayland > Display Management System, and replace Gnome with Unity. X11 and Gnome > will still be in the Ubuntu repos, at least initially, but they won't be > the Ubuntu default anymore. > > What are your opinions on the matter, will this have repercussions for > Debian? *Should* it? I hope it's just an Ubuntu trend and not affecting/spreading to other distros >:-) Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2010.11.09.12.19.52@gmail.com |
Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?
On 11/09/2010 07:08 AM, Klistvud wrote:
As you probably know, Ubuntu is planning to replace X11 with the Wayland Display Management System, and replace Gnome with Unity. X11 and Gnome will still be in the Ubuntu repos, at least initially, but they won't be the Ubuntu default anymore. What are your opinions on the matter, will this have repercussions for Debian? *Should* it? I just looked at this page, a review of sorts.. http://www.webupd8.org/2010/05/taking-ubuntu-unity-interface-for-test.html doesn't sound like a good replacement for such a robust desktop as gnome.. I personally like LXDE.. but it has problems also. For a Debian Light version/Netbook, MAYBE.. but I don't have a netbook:) -- Paul Cartwright Registered Linux user # 367800 |
Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?
* On 2010 09 Nov 06:09 -0600, Klistvud wrote:
> Howdie, fellow Debianites! > > As you probably know, Ubuntu is planning to replace X11 with the > Wayland Display Management System, and replace Gnome with Unity. X11 > and Gnome will still be in the Ubuntu repos, at least initially, but > they won't be the Ubuntu default anymore. > > What are your opinions on the matter, will this have repercussions > for Debian? *Should* it? While there is a lot of cross pollination between Debian and Ubuntu, they remain separate projects with differing goals. Ubuntu using Unity for its desktop shell will have no effect on Debian's default desktop installation. Unity will likely be available in the Debian repos, assuming the licensing is compatible, of course. I suspect the same will be the case with Wayland. I'm not going to join the shrill chorus rebuking Ubuntu/Canonical for their decision. I'm looking forward to how this will pan out as I think there is room for some experimentation amongst distributions. - Nate >> -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://n0nb.us/index.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org Archive: 20101109125359.GK2663@n0nb.us">http://lists.debian.org/20101109125359.GK2663@n0nb.us |
Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?
On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 7:19 AM, Camaleón <noelamac@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 13:08:05 +0100, Klistvud wrote: >> >> As you probably know, Ubuntu is planning to replace X11 with the Wayland >> Display Management System, and replace Gnome with Unity. X11 and Gnome >> will still be in the Ubuntu repos, at least initially, but they won't be >> the Ubuntu default anymore. >> >> What are your opinions on the matter, will this have repercussions for >> Debian? *Should* it? > > I hope it's just an Ubuntu trend and not affecting/spreading to other > distros >:-) Re Unity: Debian hasn't adopted upstart so why should it adopt unity? I'm sure that it'll end up in the Debian repos for those of us who want to try/use it. It would be fun (perverse, sadistic fun though!) to follow any debian-devel thread started by someone proposing to make unity the Debian default. :) Re Wayland: >From a Wayland FAQ: <start> Why fork the X server? It's not an X server and not a fork. It's a minimal server that lets clients communicate GEM buffers and information about updates to those buffers to a compositor. ... Is wayland replacing the X server? It could replace X as the native Linux graphics server, but I'm sure X will always be there on the side. I imagine that Wayland and X will coexist in two ways on a Linux desktop: 1. Wayland is a graphics multiplexer for a number of X servers. Linux today typically only uses one X server for GDM and the user session, but we'll probably see that move to a dedicated GDM X server, an X server for user sessions (spawning more on the fly as more users log in) and maybe a dedicated screensaver/unlock X server. Right now we rely on VT switching to move between X servers, and it's horrible. We have no control over what the transitions look like and the VT ioctls are pretty bad. Wayland provides a solution here, in that it can host several X servers as they push their root window to Wayland as surfaces. The compositor in this case will be a dedicated session switcher that will cross-fade between X servers or spin them on a cube. 2. Further down the road we run a user session natively under Wayland with clients written for Wayland. There will still (always) be X applications to run, but we now run these under a root-less X server that is itself a client of the Wayland server. This will inject the X windows into the Wayland session as native looking clients. The session Wayland server can run as a nested Wayland server under the system Wayland server described above, maybe even side by side with X sessions. There's a number of intermediate steps, such as running the GNOME screen saver as a native wayland client, for example, or running a composited X desktop, where the compositor is a Wayland client, pushing the composited desktop to Wayland. </end> So the stories about X being ripped out and replaced in Ubuntu 11.10/12.04/... might not be entirely accurate. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org Archive: AANLkTinZDza5=8L3u41Q-5kQE4uJYqT31WOmkGrFvun=@mail.gmail.com">http://lists.debian.org/AANLkTinZDza5=8L3u41Q-5kQE4uJYqT31WOmkGrFvun=@mail.gmail.com |
Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?
On 11/9/2010 6:56 AM, Tom H wrote:
On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 7:19 AM, Camaleón<noelamac@gmail.com> wrote: On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 13:08:05 +0100, Klistvud wrote: As you probably know, Ubuntu is planning to replace X11 with the Wayland Display Management System, and replace Gnome with Unity. X11 and Gnome will still be in the Ubuntu repos, at least initially, but they won't be the Ubuntu default anymore. What are your opinions on the matter, will this have repercussions for Debian? *Should* it? I hope it's just an Ubuntu trend and not affecting/spreading to other distros>:-) Re Unity: Debian hasn't adopted upstart so why should it adopt unity? I'm sure that it'll end up in the Debian repos for those of us who want to try/use it. It would be fun (perverse, sadistic fun though!) to follow any debian-devel thread started by someone proposing to make unity the Debian default. :) Re Wayland: From a Wayland FAQ: <start> Why fork the X server? It's not an X server and not a fork. It's a minimal server that lets clients communicate GEM buffers and information about updates to those buffers to a compositor. ... Is wayland replacing the X server? It could replace X as the native Linux graphics server, but I'm sure X will always be there on the side. I imagine that Wayland and X will coexist in two ways on a Linux desktop: 1. Wayland is a graphics multiplexer for a number of X servers. Linux today typically only uses one X server for GDM and the user session, but we'll probably see that move to a dedicated GDM X server, an X server for user sessions (spawning more on the fly as more users log in) and maybe a dedicated screensaver/unlock X server. Right now we rely on VT switching to move between X servers, and it's horrible. We have no control over what the transitions look like and the VT ioctls are pretty bad. Wayland provides a solution here, in that it can host several X servers as they push their root window to Wayland as surfaces. The compositor in this case will be a dedicated session switcher that will cross-fade between X servers or spin them on a cube. 2. Further down the road we run a user session natively under Wayland with clients written for Wayland. There will still (always) be X applications to run, but we now run these under a root-less X server that is itself a client of the Wayland server. This will inject the X windows into the Wayland session as native looking clients. The session Wayland server can run as a nested Wayland server under the system Wayland server described above, maybe even side by side with X sessions. There's a number of intermediate steps, such as running the GNOME screen saver as a native wayland client, for example, or running a composited X desktop, where the compositor is a Wayland client, pushing the composited desktop to Wayland. </end> So the stories about X being ripped out and replaced in Ubuntu 11.10/12.04/... might not be entirely accurate. This post reminds me of Qubes OS by Invisible Things Lab. The goal of Qubes is to take virtualization to the extreme by creating many small and light, fast-booting VMs for special purposes, e.g., special VMs just for web browsing, and even creating on-the-fly VMs called "disposable VMs". All this is in the name of security. Qubes is a Linux-derived OS on top on Xen. The fly in the ointment has been X. They are adapting their GUI to isolate X sessions. I don't know the exact way they are doing this, but it looks like Wayland might hypothetically serve some purpose in such a setup. It still sounds very centralized, though, adhering to the client/server model, so I hope that security isn't an issue. With Ubuntu 10.04, and even more so with Meercat and now with this, it seems like Ubuntu has jumped on the crazy train. I hope they don't get *too* far away from Debian, for dozens of reasons, but it might be interesting to see what happens. In the meantime, I hope Debian remains stable and reliable. I like GNOME and LXDE, and Unity doesn't particularly excite me. Perhaps I've become stodgy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org Archive: 4CD9524F.1010501@allums.com">http://lists.debian.org/4CD9524F.1010501@allums.com |
Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?
On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 13:33:56 +0100, Michael Schmitt wrote:
> 2010/11/9 Camaleón > >> On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 13:08:05 +0100, Klistvud wrote: >> >> > What are your opinions on the matter, will this have repercussions >> > for Debian? *Should* it? >> >> I hope it's just an Ubuntu trend and not affecting/spreading to other >> distros >:-) > is there an urgent and important reason for a replacement? pro and cons > ? > I myself would prefer to keep X11 I see not good technical reason for introducing the change. At least not nowadays. And that is one of the reasons I always fear "business decisions" (we should not forget that Canonical is the company behind Ubuntu) because "business decisions" can be founded on market/marketing issues and not technicalities and the latter are the only ones that should lead to these kind of changes. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org Archive: pan.2010.11.09.13.57.14@gmail.com">http://lists.debian.org/pan.2010.11.09.13.57.14@gmail.com |
Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?
On Tue, Nov 09, 2010 at 07:53:19AM -0600, Mark Allums wrote:
[...] > With Ubuntu 10.04, and even more so with Meercat and now with this, it > seems like Ubuntu has jumped on the crazy train. I hope they don't get > *too* far away from Debian, for dozens of reasons, but it might be > interesting to see what happens. In the meantime, I hope Debian remains > stable and reliable. > > I like GNOME and LXDE, and Unity doesn't particularly excite me. Perhaps > I've become stodgy. There are three approaches to this sort of thing: 1) Everything I want and need I have. Maintain the status quo so I can use my tools instead of adapting to changes in them. 2) If it's new, I want to play with it, try it out, and improve it. Tried and true is great and all, but it can always be better. 3) I don't feel a pressing need for this new stuff, but if something compelling comes along that requires it, I could be convinced. Most people fall into that third category. I'm one of them. I use an older version of Vim because I want to stay on (mostly) stable. The features of the newer versions aren't quite compelling enough to go through maintaining a testing/unstable mix. A few more useful features (especially since I use a newer Vim on Windows and Cygwin/X11 at work), though, and I might go for it. When and if an application comes along that only has a Wayland/Unity GUI that a lot of people really, really want, there will be people interested in making Wayland and Unity work, work well, and work seamlessly on Debian. (I'm not certain, but I have a sneaky suspicion that a lot of the drive behind making Java easier to install and manage on Debian was Azureus, and the desire to silence the unending stream of questions about how to get things working as a result.) Personally, I'll wait and see. --Greg -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org Archive: 20101109141255.GW10309@anthropohedron.net">http://lists.debian.org/20101109141255.GW10309@anthropohedron.net |
Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?
On Tue, Nov 09, 2010 at 01:57:15PM +0000, Camale?n wrote:
[...] > I see not good technical reason for introducing the change. At least not > nowadays. > > And that is one of the reasons I always fear "business decisions" (we > should not forget that Canonical is the company behind Ubuntu) because > "business decisions" can be founded on market/marketing issues and not > technicalities and the latter are the only ones that should lead to these > kind of changes. Don't be too down on them. Wayland and Unity might really be a good path forward. It is a grand experiment that can only be executed wholeheartedly by fiat, and Canonical is taking it on. We in Debian-land get to reap the benefits of Ubuntu's experiment if they get it working well, but don't have to deal with the upheaval until a lot of the kinks are smoothed out and don't have to touch it at all if the experiment fails. I call it win-win (and I also call it "better you than me"). > Greetings, > Camale??n --Greg -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org Archive: 20101109141845.GX10309@anthropohedron.net">http://lists.debian.org/20101109141845.GX10309@anthropohedron.net |
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