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Old 11-09-2010, 08:20 PM
Roger Leigh
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

On Tue, Nov 09, 2010 at 09:48:12PM +0100, Sven Hoexter wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 09, 2010 at 09:13:04PM +0100, Jochen Schulz wrote:
>
> > But I tend to agree with what another poster said: Ubuntu may be the
> > right place to try things like this. Debian isn't, but it still may
> > profit from the experience. Without being a Ubuntu fanboy, I hope this
> > experiment won't damage their reputation.
>
> There've been times in the past when Debian was the playground to
> introduce new cool technology. It's strange that nowdays people expect
> Debian to stay away from it. It even reverts the upstream/downstream
> relationship with Ubuntu.

I do find this a bit of an odd attitude as well to be honest. Debian
isn't, and shouldn't, be about blindly accepting and packaging stuff
from other people. We also have a lot of talented developers, many
of whom are deeply involved with hundreds of upstream projects in
addition to Debian-specific projects.

While making Wayland the default right now is probably a bad move,
there's no reason why it can't be packaged and available in Debian
for people wanting to test it.

Ironically, Wayland is mainly a RedHat-funded project, which I do
wish all the best. But it's yet another example of Ubuntu picking
up someone else's work and getting all the glory. This time, they
may well be jumping the gun; how many people here have actually
used it? It's likely not ready for prime-time just yet. When it is,
I'm sure you'll see it in Debian.


Regards,
Roger

--
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Old 11-09-2010, 08:27 PM
Nuno Magalhães
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 20:48, Sven Hoexter <sven@timegate.de> wrote:
> There've been times in the past when Debian was the playground to
> introduce new cool technology. It's strange that nowdays people expect
> Debian to stay away from it

Er... stable > testing > unstable > experimental means there's room
for both trends. Maybe it is a manpower thing, sadly.

--
Mars 2 Stay!
http://xkcd.com/801/
/etc


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Old 11-09-2010, 09:54 PM
Jochen Schulz
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

Sven Hoexter:
> On Tue, Nov 09, 2010 at 09:13:04PM +0100, Jochen Schulz wrote:
>
>> But I tend to agree with what another poster said: Ubuntu may be the
>> right place to try things like this. Debian isn't, but it still may
>> profit from the experience. Without being a Ubuntu fanboy, I hope this
>> experiment won't damage their reputation.
>
> There've been times in the past when Debian was the playground to
> introduce new cool technology.

When was that the case? I use Debian since potato and I never had this
impression. But I might have missed that particular image in the first
one or two years.

> It's strange that nowdays people expect Debian to stay away from it.
> It even reverts the upstream/downstream relationship with Ubuntu.

That's not true anymore for many packages. Ubuntu tried to make
cutting-edge solutions usable by everyone almost from the start.

> I'm not sure if I'd call that an improvement but it somehow
> demonstrates a lack of manpower in Debian because otherwise someone
> would've already packaged wayland for Debian.

I am unsure whether this is about manpower only. Debian's answer usually
is "we just need someone to package it", but there's more to it.

People will probably name a lot of counterexamples, but my impression is
that Debian is currently unable to push any big changes forward. Even
"internals" like multiarch don't happen. Maybe package maintainers have
too much power over their packages, maybe it's just too much
bikeshedding or personal attacks. And one could probably argue that the
decision making process isn't designed for big changes in the first
place. I don't know.

I think the best change since I-don't-know-when is the recently passed
GR concerning "non-packaging contributors". I hope it pulls in a lot of
people with a different point of view than the regular package
maintainer.

J.
--
I worry about people thinking I have lost direction.
[Agree] [Disagree]
<http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html>
 
Old 11-10-2010, 05:19 PM
Sven Hoexter
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

On Tue, Nov 09, 2010 at 11:54:17PM +0100, Jochen Schulz wrote:
> Sven Hoexter:

Hi,

> > There've been times in the past when Debian was the playground to
> > introduce new cool technology.
>
> When was that the case? I use Debian since potato and I never had this
> impression. But I might have missed that particular image in the first
> one or two years.

I think there are areas where Debian still is a playground for new
or at least non mainstream technology.
See e.g. the kfreebsd, Hurd or even Minix 3 porting efforts. There is
also ongoing support for new hardware architectures and improvement for
existing once like armhf.

There are other things like the mime-support integration which as far
as I remember started around Debian. Or other helpful efforts like debconf.
I guess there's a lot more I just missed.


> > It's strange that nowdays people expect Debian to stay away from it.
> > It even reverts the upstream/downstream relationship with Ubuntu.
>
> That's not true anymore for many packages. Ubuntu tried to make
> cutting-edge solutions usable by everyone almost from the start.

Well yes while Ubuntu and Fedora provides more recent software I don't
see why Debian should avoid to experiment with it?
Nobody claimed that wayland should be the default display server for the next
stable release. Even for Ubuntu I think Mark suggested to try it and see if
it works.


> I am unsure whether this is about manpower only. Debian's answer usually
> is "we just need someone to package it", but there's more to it.
>
> People will probably name a lot of counterexamples, but my impression is
> that Debian is currently unable to push any big changes forward. Even
> "internals" like multiarch don't happen. Maybe package maintainers have
> too much power over their packages, maybe it's just too much
> bikeshedding or personal attacks. And one could probably argue that the
> decision making process isn't designed for big changes in the first
> place. I don't know.

Get involved and help.

[Maybe I should just have spent the time to participate in this thread
with packaging LyX 2. *sigh*]

Sven
--
And I don't know much, but I do know this:
With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.
[ Streetlight Manifesto - Here's To Life ]


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Old 11-10-2010, 10:40 PM
Felipe Sateler
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

On 11/09/2010 11:48 AM, Camaleón wrote:

> If I were an Ubuntu user I wouldn't like to be treated as "guinea-pig" :-)

If you were an Ubuntu user you would already be

--
Saludos,
Felipe Sateler
 

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