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Old 11-09-2010, 01:48 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 09:18:45 -0500, Gregory Seidman wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 09, 2010 at 01:57:15PM +0000, Camale?n wrote: [...]
>> I see not good technical reason for introducing the change. At least
>> not nowadays.
>>
>> And that is one of the reasons I always fear "business decisions" (we
>> should not forget that Canonical is the company behind Ubuntu) because
>> "business decisions" can be founded on market/marketing issues and not
>> technicalities and the latter are the only ones that should lead to
>> these kind of changes.
>
> Don't be too down on them. Wayland and Unity might really be a good path
> forward. It is a grand experiment that can only be executed
> wholeheartedly by fiat, and Canonical is taking it on. We in Debian-land
> get to reap the benefits of Ubuntu's experiment if they get it working
> well, but don't have to deal with the upheaval until a lot of the kinks
> are smoothed out and don't have to touch it at all if the experiment
> fails. I call it win-win (and I also call it "better you than me").

If I were an Ubuntu user I wouldn't like to be treated as "guinea-pig" :-)

Experiments are fine... for development releases and provided they are
being incorporated in a logical timeframe (6 months is not what I take
for "logical timeframe").

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 11-09-2010, 01:54 PM
Nuno Magalhăes
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

Eh, i misread Weyland Yutani.

In the long run it might be interesting to have Wayland and Xorg
together, especially with VMs involved, but for now it's just a pet
project. And Debian will always be Debian, regardless of its bastards.

My 2˘

--
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http://xkcd.com/801/
/etc


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Old 11-09-2010, 02:55 PM
Jochen Schulz
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

Camaleón:
> On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 13:33:56 +0100, Michael Schmitt wrote:
>> 2010/11/9 Camaleón
>>
>> I myself would prefer to keep X11
>
> I see not good technical reason for introducing the change. At least not
> nowadays.

I am not an X window programmer (don't even know C), but my impression
is that X has quite a few design warts that many people would love to
get rid of. And you cannot really blame X for that, it's more than
25 years old and was designed at a time where GUIs were still quite
uncommon.

I cannot judge whether Wayland is in any way better, though.

> And that is one of the reasons I always fear "business decisions" (we
> should not forget that Canonical is the company behind Ubuntu) because
> "business decisions" can be founded on market/marketing issues and not
> technicalities and the latter are the only ones that should lead to these
> kind of changes.

As a Debian user, you shouldn't forget political reasons as an important
impetus for change. ;-)

J.
--
I am getting worse rather than better.
[Agree] [Disagree]
<http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html>
 
Old 11-09-2010, 03:14 PM
"B. Alexander"
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

I personally am not impressed with Unity. I think it looks and feels
too much like Moblin. It may be good for a netbook or other
screen-real-estate limited device (I'm not even sure on this point),
but a full-size desktop? Not thanks. I usually have multiple windows
open on multiple desktops, and having windows open and covering the
icons so I can't open more windows just does not fit my workflow. I
imagine opening a terminal and ending up with a single 1680x1050 xterm
devouring my screen. Worse, in a font that is large enough so that the
terminals size is still 80 columns by 16 lines and can be read by
someone 2 rooms away...

Having said all that, I have never used Unity. It may be the best
thing since the invention of the computer, but I don't think so.

Just my 2 cents.
--b

On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 7:08 AM, Klistvud <quotations@aliceadsl.fr> wrote:
> Howdie, fellow Debianites!
>
> As you probably know, Ubuntu is planning to replace X11 with the Wayland
> Display Management System, and replace Gnome with Unity. X11 and Gnome will
> still be in the Ubuntu repos, at least initially, but they won't be the
> Ubuntu default anymore.
>
> What are your opinions on the matter, will this have repercussions for
> Debian? *Should* it?
>
> --
> Cheerio,
>
> Klistvud * * * * * * * * * * * * * * http://bufferoverflow.tiddlyspot.com
> Certifiable Loonix User #481801 * * *Please reply to the list, not to me.
>
>
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>
>


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Old 11-09-2010, 03:41 PM
Camaleón
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 16:55:09 +0100, Jochen Schulz wrote:

> Camaleón:
>> On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 13:33:56 +0100, Michael Schmitt wrote:
>>> 2010/11/9 Camaleón
>>>
>>> I myself would prefer to keep X11
>>
>> I see not good technical reason for introducing the change. At least
>> not nowadays.
>
> I am not an X window programmer (don't even know C), but my impression
> is that X has quite a few design warts that many people would love to
> get rid of. And you cannot really blame X for that, it's more than 25
> years old and was designed at a time where GUIs were still quite
> uncommon.

Yes, but people's wishes tend to go faster than developers achivements
and today there are many applications which depend/rely on Xorg/X11 and
porting them to play fine with another display system requires time (and
not just to play fine but to be stable and provinding the same
capabilities that currently are there).

> I cannot judge whether Wayland is in any way better, though.

Me neither, but it is still at alpha stage (well, this is said from a
person -me- who still uses grub legacy because is robust, well-known and
mature). I mean, I'm a bit conservative :-)

Greetings,

--
Camaleón


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Old 11-09-2010, 04:23 PM
Mark Allums
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

On 11/9/2010 7:53 AM, Mark Allums wrote:


The fly in the ointment [for Qubes OS] has been X.
[Invisible Things Lab]are adapting their GUI to isolate
X sessions. I don't know the exact way they are doing
this, but it looks like Wayland might hypothetically
serve some purpose in such a setup. [Wayland] still
soundsvery centralized, though, adhering to the
client/server model, so I hope that security isn't an
issue.



I wrote something like the above in a previous post as a tangential
thought about Wayland; I wanted to clarify it some. Feel free to ignore.


Back onto the off-topic subject: If I had to guess, I'd say there
aren't any short-term repercussions affecting Debian. As others have
pointed out, Ubuntu is Ubuntu, and Debian is Debian. They are not
Siamese twins, joined at the hip. I wish them the best of luck, but for
me it will be business as usual.



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Old 11-09-2010, 04:32 PM
Phil Requirements
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

On 2010-11-09 07:53:19 -0600, Mark Allums wrote:
> On 11/9/2010 6:56 AM, Tom H wrote:
> >On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 7:19 AM, Camaleón<noelamac@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 13:08:05 +0100, Klistvud wrote:
> >>>
> >>>As you probably know, Ubuntu is planning to replace X11 with the Wayland
> >>>Display Management System, and replace Gnome with Unity. X11 and Gnome
> >>
> >>I hope it's just an Ubuntu trend and not affecting/spreading to other
> >>distros>:-)
> >
> >Debian hasn't adopted upstart so why should it adopt unity? I'm sure
> >that it'll end up in the Debian repos for those of us who want to
> >try/use it. It would be fun (perverse, sadistic fun though!) to follow
> >any debian-devel thread started by someone proposing to make unity the
> >Debian default.
> >
> >So the stories about X being ripped out and replaced in Ubuntu
> >11.10/12.04/... might not be entirely accurate.
> >
>
> With Ubuntu 10.04, and even more so with Meercat and now with this,
> it seems like Ubuntu has jumped on the crazy train. I hope they
> don't get *too* far away from Debian, for dozens of reasons, but it
> might be interesting to see what happens. In the meantime, I hope
> Debian remains stable and reliable.
>

I like this phrasing, that Ubuntu "has jumped on the crazy train". I
don't totally agree with that, but it really encapsulates a line of
thought.

A different idea is that Ubuntu is trying to be very forward-thinking,
because they want to be the Next Big Thing. I think they are looking
into the future and seeing: handheld computers, thin clients, cloud
computing, and whatever else is in their crystal ball.

For Ubuntu to thrive in the future, they need to be cool, modern,
slick, etc. Windows, Apple, and Google all are developing features to
make themselves the Next Big Thing. I think Ubuntu is looking around
the software landscape and trying to figure out what they can pick up
that will make themselves vital and modern. They want to "win" in the
popular imagination, and that will take some changes (according to their
crystal ball).


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Old 11-09-2010, 07:13 PM
Jochen Schulz
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

Camaleón:
> On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 16:55:09 +0100, Jochen Schulz wrote:
>>
>> I am not an X window programmer (don't even know C), but my impression
>> is that X has quite a few design warts that many people would love to
>> get rid of. And you cannot really blame X for that, it's more than 25
>> years old and was designed at a time where GUIs were still quite
>> uncommon.
>
> Yes, but people's wishes tend to go faster than developers achivements
> and today there are many applications which depend/rely on Xorg/X11 and
> porting them to play fine with another display system requires time (and
> not just to play fine but to be stable and provinding the same
> capabilities that currently are there).

True. X11's age does not only make replacing it a better idea, but a
harder task, too.

>> I cannot judge whether Wayland is in any way better, though.
>
> Me neither, but it is still at alpha stage (well, this is said from a
> person -me- who still uses grub legacy because is robust, well-known and
> mature). I mean, I'm a bit conservative :-)

I actually jumped on the grub2 bandwagon, but only because I needed one
of its features. (Cool thing: boot your BIOS update iso from disk and
flash it. )

But I tend to agree with what another poster said: Ubuntu may be the
right place to try things like this. Debian isn't, but it still may
profit from the experience. Without being a Ubuntu fanboy, I hope this
experiment won't damage their reputation.

J.
--
If politics is the blind leading the blind, entertainment is the fucked-
up leading the hypnotised.
[Agree] [Disagree]
<http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html>
 
Old 11-09-2010, 07:20 PM
Petrus Validus
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

> What are your opinions on the matter, will this have repercussions for
> Debian? *Should* it?

Admittedly I don't know much about either, I had to do some reading
first. I don't see it having any *immediate* effects on Debian as they
are two separate entities.

I tend to agree with the phrase, "newer isn't always better." It's one
of the reasons why I use Debian. From the limited reading and
screenshots I've seen I can say GNOME works just fine for me.
--
Petrus Validus
Petrus.Validus@gmail.com
If there isn't a way, I'll make one.


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Old 11-09-2010, 07:48 PM
Sven Hoexter
 
Default Wayland & Unity -- any repercussions on Debian?

On Tue, Nov 09, 2010 at 09:13:04PM +0100, Jochen Schulz wrote:

> But I tend to agree with what another poster said: Ubuntu may be the
> right place to try things like this. Debian isn't, but it still may
> profit from the experience. Without being a Ubuntu fanboy, I hope this
> experiment won't damage their reputation.

There've been times in the past when Debian was the playground to
introduce new cool technology. It's strange that nowdays people expect
Debian to stay away from it. It even reverts the upstream/downstream
relationship with Ubuntu. I'm not sure if I'd call that an improvement
but it somehow demonstrates a lack of manpower in Debian because otherwise
someone would've already packaged wayland for Debian.

As long as you've a choice I don't even see a problem with offering two
solutions for one problem.

Sven
--
And I don't know much, but I do know this:
With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.
[ Streetlight Manifesto - Here's To Life ]


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