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Old 09-21-2010, 11:51 AM
Scott Ferguson
 
Default Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)

Regarding post "ps - illegal instruction" by Jerry Stuckle

To satisfy my curiosity I have been trying (without success) to get
Debian installed and running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC.

What I have discovered is that:-
1. If you run Windoof 7 in VirtualBox (under Debian) it runs fine -
given an inordinate amount of RAM. However it immediately freezes when I
attempt to start the W7VPC. Hmmmm...
2. The xml configuration files for W7VPC are remarkably similar to the
VirtualBox ones....
3. Some of the W7VPC components are remarkably similar to VirtualBox
Guest Additions....

Someone with more knowledge of the history of Virtual PC may be able to
explain those similarities.
I suspect the similarities between VirtualBox and W7VPC are close enough
to allow "modification" of W7VPC to make it work the way it should. :-)
Clearly I will need to install Windoof7 on real hardware if I want to
continue meddling.

A number of points were raised when Jerry posted his requests for
assistance:-
1. Don't bother - Microsoft don't want it to work
2. Other emulator/virtualization solutions exist - use them
3. It would require reverse-engineering - which is bad
4. Why bother (with various reasoning's)

I like the idea of being able to run my favourite OS within Windoof
(which on occasion I've been required to use).
I'd like to be able to do it without needing Admin rights.
I'm not keen on Microsoft dictating what I can and can't do - either I
own it (and can smoke it if I like) or I'm renting/leasing it - and I
want my money back ;-p
If FOSS removed everything that came from reverse engineering we'd all
be computing with paper - SAMBA certainly wouldn't exist, ditto for a
lot of drivers (sigh).

I hope to return to this exercise (in futility?) when I have some more
free time - I'll post a summary of any progress.

Cheers all
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Old 09-21-2010, 12:59 PM
John Hasler
 
Default Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)

Scott Ferguson writes:
> 3. It would require reverse-engineering - which is bad

No it isn't. I noted that Microsoft claims that it is illegal, but that
is not the same thing at all.
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Old 09-21-2010, 01:34 PM
Scott Ferguson
 
Default Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)

On 21/09/10 22:59, John Hasler wrote:
> Scott Ferguson writes:
>> 3. It would require reverse-engineering - which is bad
>
> No it isn't. I noted that Microsoft claims that it is illegal, but that
> is not the same thing at all.
:-D

Agreed John, hence my comment a little further down about "either I own
it..."

I've often said if Microsoft sold cars, the sales jobs'd be less popular
than parking inspectors.
That's business practices.

I've read that when the Romans ran most of the world - bridge builders
were made to stand under any bridge they'd just completed while a legion
marched over it. There's a responsibility that comes with the money (and
the rattle of a stick in the swill bucket).
That's the product.

Now if I can just find the time to make Virtual PC work - then anyone
with non-Admin access to Windoof 7 can (theoretically) run their OS of
choice.... which'd be just fine and dandy by me :-D

Cheers

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Old 09-21-2010, 04:42 PM
"Jesús M. Navarro"
 
Default Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)

On Tuesday 21 September 2010 15:34:41 Scott Ferguson wrote:
> On 21/09/10 22:59, John Hasler wrote:
> > Scott Ferguson writes:
> >> 3. It would require reverse-engineering - which is bad
> >
> > No it isn't. I noted that Microsoft claims that it is illegal, but that
> > is not the same thing at all.

"Bad" is not a synonimous for "illegal".

Reverse-ingeneering is bad in that, at least, it forces you to do a work you
could avoid by just having access to internal documentation and source
code... as it's the case when open source.

Cheers.


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Old 09-22-2010, 07:29 PM
Mark Allums
 
Default Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)

On 9/21/2010 6:51 AM, Scott Ferguson wrote:


To satisfy my curiosity I have been trying (without success) to get
Debian installed and running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC.

What I have discovered is that:-
1. If you run Windoof 7 in VirtualBox (under Debian) it runs fine -
given an inordinate amount of RAM. However it immediately freezes when I
attempt to start the W7VPC. Hmmmm...



I am probably way late on this one, but that maneuver is a nonstarter.
Nested Virtualization is very difficult and kind of pointless. A few
security researchers[0] have done it, mostly as a stunt to prove a
technical point, but it is very unstable. You *can* run DOSbox in a VM,
but generally the question is, why would you?


0. Google Joanna Rutkowska, Blue Pill


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Old 09-22-2010, 07:34 PM
Mark Allums
 
Default Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)

On 9/21/2010 6:51 AM, Scott Ferguson wrote:


Someone with more knowledge of the history of Virtual PC may be able to
explain those similarities.


Microsoft did not create VPC, they bought it from Connectix. It's
provenance probably includes a lot of old code from various places. I
used to know more, but I can't recall, and I can't be bothered to Google it.




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Old 09-22-2010, 08:14 PM
Stephen Powell
 
Default Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)

On Wed, 22 Sep 2010 15:29:59 -0400 (EDT), Mark Allums wrote:
>
> I am probably way late on this one, but that maneuver is a nonstarter.
> Nested Virtualization is very difficult and kind of pointless. A few
> security researchers[0] have done it, mostly as a stunt to prove a
> technical point, but it is very unstable. You *can* run DOSbox in a VM,
> but generally the question is, why would you?

That may be true for some virtualization software, but not for all.
My "day job" is as a system programmer for IBM mainframe systems,
and among my duties is responsibility for a z/VM system. In z/VM,
nested virtualization is not difficult, pointless, or unstable. I routinely
install a new release of z/VM in a virtual machine running under
the production release of z/VM, for example. There's even instructions
in IBM's installation manuals for how to do this.

z/VM is probably the most robust virtualization platform available
anywhere, having been developed, tweaked, and honed by IBM since 1967.
But it has two distict disadvantages: (1) it is proprietary, for-charge
software and (2) it only runs on IBM mainframes.

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: :' :
`. `'`
`-


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Old 09-22-2010, 09:38 PM
Mark Allums
 
Default Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)

On 9/22/2010 3:14 PM, Stephen Powell wrote:

That may be true for some virtualization software, but not for all.
My "day job" is as a system programmer for IBM mainframe systems,
and among my duties is responsibility for a z/VM system. In z/VM,
nested virtualization is not difficult, pointless, or unstable. I routinely
install a new release of z/VM in a virtual machine running under
the production release of z/VM, for example. There's even instructions
in IBM's installation manuals for how to do this.



This is the exception that proves the rule. I still think that doing it
under an AMD64 or Intel x86_64 is probably futile under the current
state-of -the-art.


I know it's been done under a XEN hypervisor. I don't know about
Virtualbox. If you do it and it's stable, like I asked another poster
in another thread, please write a HOWTO and show everyone how it's done.


I am aware of the old MVS and all that, running DOS and CMS and so on
all at the same time, but I'm a decade too young to have any experience
with that. All I can say I've done is write COBOL and JCL with Report
Writer under WYLBUR for a class.



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Old 09-23-2010, 02:41 AM
Scott Ferguson
 
Default Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)

On 23/09/10 05:29, Mark Allums wrote:
> On 9/21/2010 6:51 AM, Scott Ferguson wrote:
>
>> To satisfy my curiosity I have been trying (without success) to get
>> Debian installed and running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC.
>>
>> What I have discovered is that:-
>> 1. If you run Windoof 7 in VirtualBox (under Debian) it runs fine -
>> given an inordinate amount of RAM. However it immediately freezes when I
>> attempt to start the W7VPC. Hmmmm...
>
>
> I am probably way late on this one, but that maneuver is a nonstarter.
> Nested Virtualization is very difficult and kind of pointless. A few
> security researchers[0] have done it, mostly as a stunt to prove a
> technical point, but it is very unstable. You *can* run DOSbox in a VM,
> but generally the question is, why would you?
>
> 0. Google Joanna Rutkowska, Blue Pill
>
>
Understood. Nested virtualization was *not* the point, or objective of
the exercise.
If your intentions are instructive/supportive, please read the thread
"ps - illegal instruction" to catch up.

A few? Difficult? Stunts? (sigh)

Sorry Joanna - at this point I need more coffee before I start biting
things for the sake of biting :-/

Cheers

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Old 09-23-2010, 02:45 AM
Scott Ferguson
 
Default Debian not running in Windoof 7 Virtual PC (in VirtualBox)

On 23/09/10 05:34, Mark Allums wrote:
> On 9/21/2010 6:51 AM, Scott Ferguson wrote:
>
>> Someone with more knowledge of the history of Virtual PC may be able to
>> explain those similarities.
>
> Microsoft did not create VPC, they bought it from Connectix. It's
> provenance probably includes a lot of old code from various places. I
> used to know more, but I can't recall, and I can't be bothered to Google
> it.
>
>
>
Thanks Mark. I have received some information that the same people
worked on the VPC and VirtualBox.

Cheers

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