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Old 09-10-2010, 07:32 PM
ceduard0
 
Default new squeeze

2010/9/9 Doug <dmcgarrett@optonline.net>
>
> I just downloaded debian-testing i386 Net Inst and burned the
> .iso onto disk. *Before I do something silly, I want to make sure
> that this is designed to live with other os's on the hd. (I remember
> one older version of Ubuntu that took over the drive, and wiped everything else out.) If everything is copacetic, I'll put it
> on my laptop along with Win XP and PcLinuxOs. *Please advise.
> thanx--doug

See http://wiki.debian.org/LennyIllustratedInstall This can help you.

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Old 09-13-2010, 11:53 PM
"Jess M. Navarro"
 
Default new squeeze

Hi:

On Friday 10 September 2010 21:17:24 Tom H wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 11:25 PM, Miles Fidelman
>

[...]

> > Now if you consider it user error to give the default answers, when you
> > actually want to save the current install, then your anwer is accurate.
>
> I do. It's a PEBKAC. With d-i and its Ubuntu implementation in its
> alternate and mini installers, the default is to use the entire disk,

I don't see that to exactly be a PEBKAC. How it's having a default destroying
your data to be considered a sane practice? default should be inoffensive or
do nothing if at all possible.

> whether there are partitions in use or not. So, you have to know that
> you cannot simply choose the defaults if you want to preserve another
> install. With Ubuntu's installer, aimed at a less technical crowd, the
> default is to do a side-by-side install.

Seems much saner (and proper) to me.

Cheers.


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Old 09-14-2010, 08:41 AM
Klistvud
 
Default new squeeze

Dne, 14. 09. 2010 01:53:07 je Jess M. Navarro napisal(a):
> install. With Ubuntu's installer, aimed at a less technical crowd,
the

> default is to do a side-by-side install.

Seems much saner (and proper) to me.


+1

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Old 09-15-2010, 04:02 AM
Tom H
 
Default new squeeze

2010/9/13 Jess M. Navarro <jesus.navarro@undominio.net>:
> On Friday 10 September 2010 21:17:24 Tom H wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 11:25 PM, Miles Fidelman
>> >
>> > Now if you consider it user error to give the default answers, when you
>> > actually want to save the current install, then your anwer is accurate.
>>
>> I do. It's a PEBKAC. With d-i and its Ubuntu implementation in its
>> alternate and mini installers, the default is to use the entire disk,
>
> I don't see that to exactly be a PEBKAC. *How it's having a default destroying
> your data to be considered a sane practice? default should be inoffensive or
> do nothing if at all possible.

I guess that the assumption is that someone installing Debian knows
whether he/she wants to use the default of installing the entire disk
or not.


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Old 09-15-2010, 04:22 AM
Scott Ferguson
 
Default new squeeze

> 2010/9/13 Jes�s M. Navarro <jesus.navarro@undominio.net>:
>> On Friday 10 September 2010 21:17:24 Tom H wrote:
>>> On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 11:25 PM, Miles Fidelman
>>>> Now if you consider it user error to give the default answers, when you
>>>> actually want to save the current install, then your anwer is accurate.
>>> I do. It's a PEBKAC. With d-i and its Ubuntu implementation in its
>>> alternate and mini installers, the default is to use the entire disk,
>> I don't see that to exactly be a PEBKAC. �How it's having a default destroying
>> your data to be considered a sane practice? default should be inoffensive or
>> do nothing if at all possible.
> I guess that the assumption is that someone installing Debian knows
> whether he/she wants to use the default of installing the entire disk
> or not.
>
>
I *know* that the *presumption* is that someone installing Debian has
read the fine manual before attempting an install :-)
Please don't try and correlate Ubuntu installs with Debian.

Cheers


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Old 09-15-2010, 04:40 AM
Tom H
 
Default new squeeze

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Scott Ferguson
<prettyfly.productions@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 2010/9/13 Jes�s M. Navarro <jesus.navarro@undominio.net>:
>>> On Friday 10 September 2010 21:17:24 Tom H wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 11:25 PM, Miles Fidelman
>>>>> Now if you consider it user error to give the default answers, when you
>>>>> actually want to save the current install, then your anwer is accurate.
>>>>
>>>> I do. It's a PEBKAC. With d-i and its Ubuntu implementation in its
>>>> alternate and mini installers, the default is to use the entire disk,
>>>
>>> I don't see that to exactly be a PEBKAC. �How it's having a default destroying
>>> your data to be considered a sane practice? default should be inoffensive or
>>> do nothing if at all possible.
>>
>> I guess that the assumption is that someone installing Debian knows
>> whether he/she wants to use the default of installing the entire disk
>> or not.
>
> I *know* that the *presumption* is that someone installing Debian has
> read the fine manual before attempting an install :-)
> Please don't try and correlate Ubuntu installs with Debian.

I'm not confused and I'm not the one suggesting that d-i to adopt
ubiquity's "much saner" (someone else's words not mine) defaults.
d-i's current default is just fine with me.


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Old 09-15-2010, 05:03 AM
Scott Ferguson
 
Default new squeeze

> On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Scott Ferguson
> <prettyfly.productions@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 2010/9/13 Jes�s M. Navarro <jesus.navarro@undominio.net>:
>>>> On Friday 10 September 2010 21:17:24 Tom H wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 11:25 PM, Miles Fidelman
>>>>>> Now if you consider it user error to give the default answers, when you
>>>>>> actually want to save the current install, then your anwer is accurate.
>>>>> I do. It's a PEBKAC. With d-i and its Ubuntu implementation in its
>>>>> alternate and mini installers, the default is to use the entire disk,
>>>> I don't see that to exactly be a PEBKAC. �How it's having a default destroying
>>>> your data to be considered a sane practice? default should be inoffensive or
>>>> do nothing if at all possible.
>>> I guess that the assumption is that someone installing Debian knows
>>> whether he/she wants to use the default of installing the entire disk
>>> or not.
>> I *know* that the *presumption* is that someone installing Debian has
>> read the fine manual before attempting an install :-)
>> Please don't try and correlate Ubuntu installs with Debian.
> I'm not confused and I'm not the one suggesting that d-i to adopt
> ubiquity's "much saner" (someone else's words not mine) defaults.
> d-i's current default is just fine with me.
>
>
Correcting your wording - not your opinion :-) Assume==guess
Presume==based on smidgen of evidence (at least)
Hand-holding installations have been discussed to death - the general
consensus seems to be if you want hand-holding use one of the "less
pure" Debians (Ubuntu et al).
If you want choice use the Debian installer - it may wipe an already
installed OS, it may refuse to boot if you insist on a XFS boot
partition, but it won't happen if the install notes are read. Personally
I'd like to see "expert" as the only install choice.
If we wanted to do things the Ubuntu way we'd - be on the Ubuntu lists.

Cheers


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Old 09-15-2010, 09:36 AM
Lisi
 
Default new squeeze

On Wednesday 15 September 2010 06:03:54 Scott Ferguson wrote:

> Hand-holding installations have been discussed to death - the general
> consensus seems to be if you want hand-holding use one of the "less
> pure" Debians (Ubuntu et al).
> If you want choice use the Debian installer - it may wipe an already
> installed OS, it may refuse to boot if you insist on a XFS boot
> partition, but it won't happen if the install notes are read. Personally
> I'd like to see "expert" as the only install choice.
> If we wanted to do things the Ubuntu way we'd - be on the Ubuntu lists.

Head above parapet time?

I find the hand-holding, suitable-for newbies, so-called-easy Ubuntu installer
utterly incomprehensible. Last time I tried to use it, I gave up part way
through and used the alternate installer. The Ubuntu alternate installer is,
of course, the Debian installer. Now that I understand.

Horses for courses?
<Lisi ducks behind parapet again before the fire bombs start>

Lisi


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Old 09-15-2010, 10:04 AM
Klistvud
 
Default new squeeze

Dne, 15. 09. 2010 11:36:48 je Lisi napisal(a):
I find the hand-holding, suitable-for newbies, so-called-easy Ubuntu
installer

utterly incomprehensible.


+1

That said, however, I don't think the main question here should be
"what kind of users is d-i targeted for". I think the crucial issue
should be that *the default should always be as non-destructive as
humanly possible* - just as new package versions shouldn't overwrite
admin configuration files in /etc, or new OS installations shouldn't
overwrite users' /home directories.


Therefore, although being an "expert install" user personally, I am
compelled to "vote" for a non-destructive default (aka. side-by-side
installation).



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Klistvud
Certifiable Loonix User #481801
http://bufferoverflow.tiddlyspot.com

Please reply to the list, not to me.


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Old 09-16-2010, 02:12 AM
Tom H
 
Default new squeeze

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 1:03 AM, Scott Ferguson
<prettyfly.productions@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Scott Ferguson
>> <prettyfly.productions@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 2010/9/13 Jes�s M. Navarro <jesus.navarro@undominio.net>:
>>>>> On Friday 10 September 2010 21:17:24 Tom H wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 11:25 PM, Miles Fidelman
>>>>>>> Now if you consider it user error to give the default answers, when you
>>>>>>> actually want to save the current install, then your anwer is accurate.
>>>>>> I do. It's a PEBKAC. With d-i and its Ubuntu implementation in its
>>>>>> alternate and mini installers, the default is to use the entire disk,
>>>>> I don't see that to exactly be a PEBKAC. �How it's having a default destroying
>>>>> your data to be considered a sane practice? default should be inoffensive or
>>>>> do nothing if at all possible.
>>>> I guess that the assumption is that someone installing Debian knows
>>>> whether he/she wants to use the default of installing the entire disk
>>>> or not.
>>> I *know* that the *presumption* is that someone installing Debian has
>>> read the fine manual before attempting an install :-)
>>> Please don't try and correlate Ubuntu installs with Debian.
>> I'm not confused and I'm not the one suggesting that d-i to adopt
>> ubiquity's "much saner" (someone else's words not mine) defaults.
>> d-i's current default is just fine with me.
>
> Correcting your wording - not your opinion :-) * Assume==guess
> Presume==based on smidgen of evidence (at least)

Thanks for the "presumption" correction. You're right. I thought "this
is wrong" when I typed "assumption" but didn't want to pause and think
about it and you did more than correct my English usage in your
response but it's not worth going over...


> Hand-holding installations have been discussed to death - the general
> consensus seems to be if you want hand-holding use one of the "less
> pure" Debians (Ubuntu et al).
> If you want choice use the Debian installer - it may wipe an already
> installed OS, it may refuse to boot if you insist on a XFS boot
> partition, but it won't happen if the install notes are read. Personally
> I'd like to see "expert" as the only install choice.
> If we wanted to do things the Ubuntu way we'd - be on the Ubuntu lists.

Perhaps the Debian Live CD does some hand-holding (I've never used it
so I don't know). If it does, you wouldn't need to go the Ubuntu, etc
way.

Having the expert install be the only option seems rather radical. For
example, I'm sure that my first Debian install would have stopped at
"choose installation modules" (or whatever the correct wording is)
with the thought "these Debian people are nuts!"...


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