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Old 07-02-2010, 07:46 AM
Andrei Popescu
 
Default First Debian Installation: totally brain-dead. Where do I go from here?

[Please reply to debian-user only. If you are not subscribed please ask
for CCs]

(full quote for context)

On Vi, 02 iul 10, 00:49:53, Keith Mitchell wrote:
> I decided to build a Linux box instead of emulating Linux using
> VM-Ware under Windows. I heard Debian was the way to go. I have
> created Red-Hat and Ubuntu Linux boxes in the past with no problems.
>
> This, my very first Debian installation, and it has been a total
> nightmare! I created a dual-boot installation on my ancient Gateway
> dual-processor workstation as I used to have in the past. This time it
> is XP and Debian. I reassigned one full 70-GB SCSI drive previously
> formatted with an XP NTFS file system to Linux plus another 5-GB of
> swap-space on another physical SCSI drive (for performance). This I
> know is OK.
>
> I then followed the instructions on the web-site for installing Debian
> with internet connectivity.

Did the network setup step during the installation work?

> The web instructions said burn a minimal CD, and download what you
> need from the internet.
>
> 1. I downloaded the .iso file, and burnt a bootable-CD (not DVD).
> 2. I used that CD and installed Debian. I now have a minimal and
> totally brain-dead Linux installation.

It very much depends on the answer to the question above. If your
connection worked during install you probably didn't select any "task"
(like "Desktop"). If your connection didn't work if couldn't have
downloaded all the needed packages and you might need DVD1 to get a
decent install.

> 3. There is no gcc compiler. There is no Firefox web browser.
> 4. I went back to the Debian web-site for instructions on how to
> proceed from here. There were no instructions for how to proceed from
> here. Even MinGW on Windows has a minimal Linux working set. How do I
> download a file working-set without requesting each file one by one?
> 5. Right now it seems my only option is using Gatesware Windows to
> download an Ubuntu distribution, a distribution that does work, use
> the .iso file to create a CD or DVD, and blow away the Debian crap
> that does not work.
>
> Any suggestions before I blow Debian away?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Keith.

Regards,
Andrei
--
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Old 07-02-2010, 01:03 PM
Alan Chandler
 
Default First Debian Installation: totally brain-dead. Where do I go from here?

On 02/07/10 08:46, Andrei Popescu wrote:

[Please reply to debian-user only. If you are not subscribed please ask
for CCs]

(full quote for context)

On Vi, 02 iul 10, 00:49:53, Keith Mitchell wrote:

I decided to build a Linux box instead of emulating Linux using
VM-Ware under Windows. I heard Debian was the way to go. I have
created Red-Hat and Ubuntu Linux boxes in the past with no problems.

This, my very first Debian installation, and it has been a total
nightmare! I created a dual-boot installation on my ancient Gateway
dual-processor workstation as I used to have in the past. This time it
is XP and Debian. I reassigned one full 70-GB SCSI drive previously
formatted with an XP NTFS file system to Linux plus another 5-GB of
swap-space on another physical SCSI drive (for performance). This I
know is OK.


What network connection do you have?



I then followed the instructions on the web-site for installing Debian
with internet connectivity.


Did the network setup step during the installation work?


The web instructions said burn a minimal CD, and download what you
need from the internet.

1. I downloaded the .iso file, and burnt a bootable-CD (not DVD).
2. I used that CD and installed Debian. I now have a minimal and
totally brain-dead Linux installation.


I don't know what you mean by "brain-dead". Does it connect to the
internet?


Can you look in /etc/apt/sources.list and tell us what is there. There
was a question during installation about selecting network mirrors, and
it should have written the info into this file.





It very much depends on the answer to the question above. If your
connection worked during install you probably didn't select any "task"
(like "Desktop"). If your connection didn't work if couldn't have
downloaded all the needed packages and you might need DVD1 to get a
decent install.



To be a bit clearer. There is a process during install to select some
standard configurations - if you did this you should have a lot of what
is missing. If you didn't - no matter - you can select additional
packages later. If your /etc/apt/sources.list file is sensible then you
just run


aptitude

Once this is running - you can then search for packages by typing '/'
followed by a pattern (normally just the name or partial name of a
package you are searching for). Aptitude should pick up and find the
next entry that matches as you are typing. Hit Enter to finish the
search and then 'n' to just to the next entry matching the search.


To install the ENTIRE gnome desktop for instance you just select
'gnome'. It then picks up all the dependencies and installs it for you
(there is a much more normal subset called gnome-desktop-environment and
I think there may even by a minimal)




3. There is no gcc compiler. There is no Firefox web browser.


Firefox is called Iceweasel in Debian because of licencing issues. Both
would have been installed in a normal standard install if you had a
network connection.



4. I went back to the Debian web-site for instructions on how to
proceed from here. There were no instructions for how to proceed from
here. Even MinGW on Windows has a minimal Linux working set. How do I
download a file working-set without requesting each file one by one?
5. Right now it seems my only option is using Gatesware Windows to
download an Ubuntu distribution, a distribution that does work, use
the .iso file to create a CD or DVD, and blow away the Debian crap
that does not work.


Once you have even a minimal installation (which should not normally be
the case) you can easily work from there. No need to download anymore
CD or DVD files provided the machine is connected to the internet. It is
only when it is not that you have to rely on these other things.




Any suggestions before I blow Debian away?


Two

1) Ask for help on this list
2) Calm down and don't start with the assumption that Debian is brain
dead. Normally it isn't.


--
Alan Chandler
http://www.chandlerfamily.org.uk


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Old 07-02-2010, 06:23 PM
Joe
 
Default First Debian Installation: totally brain-dead. Where do I go from here?

On 02/07/10 14:03, Alan Chandler wrote:

On 02/07/10 08:46, Andrei Popescu wrote:

[Please reply to debian-user only. If you are not subscribed please ask
for CCs]

(full quote for context)

On Vi, 02 iul 10, 00:49:53, Keith Mitchell wrote:

I decided to build a Linux box instead of emulating Linux using
VM-Ware under Windows. I heard Debian was the way to go. I have
created Red-Hat and Ubuntu Linux boxes in the past with no problems.

This, my very first Debian installation, and it has been a total
nightmare! I created a dual-boot installation on my ancient Gateway
dual-processor workstation as I used to have in the past. This time it
is XP and Debian. I reassigned one full 70-GB SCSI drive previously
formatted with an XP NTFS file system to Linux plus another 5-GB of
swap-space on another physical SCSI drive (for performance). This I
know is OK.


What network connection do you have?



I then followed the instructions on the web-site for installing Debian
with internet connectivity.


Did the network setup step during the installation work?


The web instructions said burn a minimal CD, and download what you
need from the internet.

1. I downloaded the .iso file, and burnt a bootable-CD (not DVD).
2. I used that CD and installed Debian. I now have a minimal and
totally brain-dead Linux installation.


I don't know what you mean by "brain-dead". Does it connect to the
internet?

Can you look in /etc/apt/sources.list and tell us what is there. There
was a question during installation about selecting network mirrors, and
it should have written the info into this file.




It very much depends on the answer to the question above. If your
connection worked during install you probably didn't select any "task"
(like "Desktop"). If your connection didn't work if couldn't have
downloaded all the needed packages and you might need DVD1 to get a
decent install.



To be a bit clearer. There is a process during install to select some
standard configurations - if you did this you should have a lot of what
is missing. If you didn't - no matter - you can select additional
packages later. If your /etc/apt/sources.list file is sensible then you
just run

aptitude

Once this is running - you can then search for packages by typing '/'
followed by a pattern (normally just the name or partial name of a
package you are searching for). Aptitude should pick up and find the
next entry that matches as you are typing. Hit Enter to finish the
search and then 'n' to just to the next entry matching the search.

To install the ENTIRE gnome desktop for instance you just select
'gnome'. It then picks up all the dependencies and installs it for you
(there is a much more normal subset called gnome-desktop-environment and
I think there may even by a minimal)



3. There is no gcc compiler. There is no Firefox web browser.


Firefox is called Iceweasel in Debian because of licencing issues. Both
would have been installed in a normal standard install if you had a
network connection.


4. I went back to the Debian web-site for instructions on how to
proceed from here. There were no instructions for how to proceed from
here. Even MinGW on Windows has a minimal Linux working set. How do I
download a file working-set without requesting each file one by one?
5. Right now it seems my only option is using Gatesware Windows to
download an Ubuntu distribution, a distribution that does work, use
the .iso file to create a CD or DVD, and blow away the Debian crap
that does not work.


Once you have even a minimal installation (which should not normally be
the case) you can easily work from there. No need to download anymore CD
or DVD files provided the machine is connected to the internet. It is
only when it is not that you have to rely on these other things.



Any suggestions before I blow Debian away?


Two

1) Ask for help on this list
2) Calm down and don't start with the assumption that Debian is brain
dead. Normally it isn't.

Sometimes I'm not sure. A couple of years ago, I installed etch from
scratch on a new machine rather than upgrading and migrating my old
sarge. The sarge installer was fairly good, so I'd let the standard
installation go ahead. It was a practice installation, to get the feel
of it before I got down to the details of partitioning, etc.


It was a netinstall, and so had made considerable use of the Internet,
and I was a bit taken aback to do the final reboot and find that there
was no networking. Not even localhost. I filed this as a bug, but of
course received the usual reply that this wasn't a bug.


In those days I was using fixed addresses on my couple of network
machines, and so was not running dhcp on the sarge machine. Apparently,
if during the installation, a dhcp server was not found, and you hadn't
picked the expert install, you didn't get offered networking. A feature,
not a bug.


As it happens, I was experienced enough to get it working, but the
situation might have come as a surprise to a beginner, someone who might
know enough from Windows to configure networking, but not feel confident
enough to try the expert install (or maybe not even knowing it existed).


These days I do run dhcp, and always use the expert mode after that
experience, so I've no idea whether more recent distributions behave the
same. But they might.


--
Joe


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Old 07-02-2010, 10:18 PM
Lisi
 
Default First Debian Installation: totally brain-dead. Where do I go from here?

On Friday 02 July 2010 19:23:50 Joe wrote:
> In those days I was using fixed addresses on my couple of network
> machines, and so was not running dhcp on the sarge machine. Apparently,
> if during the installation, a dhcp server was not found, and you hadn't
> picked the expert install, you didn't get offered networking. A feature,
> not a bug.
>
> As it happens, I was experienced enough to get it working, but the
> situation might have come as a surprise to a beginner, someone who might
> know enough from Windows to configure networking, but not feel confident
> enough to try the expert install (or maybe not even knowing it existed).
>
> These days I do run dhcp, and always use the expert mode after that
> experience, so I've no idea whether more recent distributions behave the
> same. But they might.

No, they don't. If they can't find a DHCP network, you get offered the chance
to do a manual network set-up. In fact, last time I installed I was able to
set the network up manually by choice, without going via a failed DHCP (I
have DHCP enabled on my router for the benefit of laptop users), But I can't
remember what I had to do.

Lisi


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Old 07-02-2010, 10:22 PM
Lisi
 
Default First Debian Installation: totally brain-dead. Where do I go from here?

On Friday 02 July 2010 20:38:52 Keith Mitchell wrote:
> Firefox and Thunderbird do have
> copyrighted stuff, however, Iceweasel did not have a Windows
> installation, otherwise I would be using it on Windows.

Firefox and Iceweasel are the same thing, so there is a version for Windows.
The copyrights over which there was a problem are the name and logos. The
software is open-source and free-as-in-beer, so can be used by anyone,
including Debian.

Lisi


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Old 07-02-2010, 10:32 PM
Lisi
 
Default First Debian Installation: totally brain-dead. Where do I go from here?

On Friday 02 July 2010 21:47:13 Mark wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 12:38 PM, Keith Mitchell <kpmitchell@gmail.com>wrote:
> > Thanks Guys:
> >
> > Looks like a serious operator malfunction on my part. My first time
> > with an internet install. In the past, I had a CD with the whole
> > distribution on it.
>
> This is something I haven't been able to wrap my head around yet. It
> _seems_ from this email list that the preferred installation method is
> netinsall/minimal install. Personally I only use CD or DVD images and this
> email thread is a good example why. A CD is downloaded so quickly these
> days, most likely taking less time than you have spent/will spend trying to
> get the minimal install working. I wonder if you download the CD .iso and
> install from that on this same machine, if you would be having those
> problems. Sure seems like an easier path than the one you're on, unless
> the point of your installation is to build from ground up and only install
> certain packages, but that's not how I've read your post. If a user's goal
> is to install Debian and get it up and running with the least amount of
> headaches, it's tough to argue against installing from a CD or DVD image.

I cannot get my head round why anyone with good Internet access would not want
a net install. Start the installer, answer the questions, most are fine if
you just accept the defaults, make sure that tasksel is offering you what you
want, and then let your box talk to itself for a short while. Bingo, a fully
installed _and_ fully updated system. If you use CDs you may have to keep
changing the CD. The full set is now something like 11 is it not?

Just _my_ 2p ;-)

Lisi



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Old 07-03-2010, 01:49 AM
Keith P Mitchell
 
Default First Debian Installation: totally brain-dead. Where do I go from here?

Hey Andrei:

Thanks for getting back.

Q. Did the network setup step during the installation work?
A. Good question. I was so concerned with disk management, I did not notice. I am looking at starting from scratch. I now have some experience and good recommendations. The physical connection is solid and reliable.

Everything that was there installed correctly. X-desktop and about five minimal applications. I just blew selecting the necessary apps.

Thanks for the reply.

Keith




On 7/2/2010 3:46 AM, Andrei Popescu wrote:

[Please reply to debian-user only. If you are not subscribed please ask
for CCs]

(full quote for context)

On Vi, 02 iul 10, 00:49:53, Keith Mitchell wrote:

I decided to build a Linux box instead of emulating Linux using
VM-Ware under Windows. I heard Debian was the way to go. I have
created Red-Hat and Ubuntu Linux boxes in the past with no problems.

This, my very first Debian installation, and it has been a total
nightmare! I created a dual-boot installation on my ancient Gateway
dual-processor workstation as I used to have in the past. This time it
is XP and Debian. I reassigned one full 70-GB SCSI drive previously
formatted with an XP NTFS file system to Linux plus another 5-GB of
swap-space on another physical SCSI drive (for performance). This I
know is OK.

I then followed the instructions on the web-site for installing Debian
with internet connectivity.

Did the network setup step during the installation work?


The web instructions said burn a minimal CD, and download what you
need from the internet.

1. I downloaded the .iso file, and burnt a bootable-CD (not DVD).
2. I used that CD and installed Debian. I now have a minimal and
totally brain-dead Linux installation.

It very much depends on the answer to the question above. If your
connection worked during install you probably didn't select any "task"
(like "Desktop"). If your connection didn't work if couldn't have
downloaded all the needed packages and you might need DVD1 to get a
decent install.


3. There is no gcc compiler. There is no Firefox web browser.
4. I went back to the Debian web-site for instructions on how to
proceed from here. There were no instructions for how to proceed from
here. Even MinGW on Windows has a minimal Linux working set. How do I
download a file working-set without requesting each file one by one?
5. Right now it seems my only option is using Gatesware Windows to
download an Ubuntu distribution, a distribution that does work, use
the .iso file to create a CD or DVD, and blow away the Debian crap
that does not work.

Any suggestions before I blow Debian away?

Thanks,

Keith.

Regards,
Andrei



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