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Old 05-25-2010, 12:21 AM
 
Default Re (2): lilo removal in squeeze (or, "please test grub2")

From: consul tores <consultores..@gmail.c..>
Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 15:32:49 -0700
> Again, and again; Debian depends of Linus Torvals;

For curiosity, what distribution does he use?

> maybe it is time to seriously think about Debian kernels!

The Hurd?

Regards, ... Peter E.


--
Carnot is waiting for a disk replacement; Web pages may not work.
Google "pathology workshop".
In ETHNO click here -> Desktops.OpenDoc http://carnot.pathology.ubc.ca/.


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Old 05-25-2010, 03:42 PM
Stephen Powell
 
Default Re (2): lilo removal in squeeze (or, "please test grub2")

On Mon, 24 May 2010 17:29:54 -0400 (EDT), Peter Easthope wrote:
> Stephen Powell wrote:
>> (3) The need for special backup requirements will be
>> used by the opponents of Linux at my place of employment
>> to oppose further deployments of Linux, ...
>
> What about the carrot approach? Find an even better
> backup method, compatible with Grub 2 and appealing
> to your management for its efficiency.

You're missing the point. The main selling point to management
is that Linux is free. If they have to buy new backup software
in order to accommodate Linux' backup requirements, that will
kill it on the spot. Whatever boot loader I use must not
require new backup software or impose special backup requirements.
And its not just money. As a rule, people like what they know.
The backup people are Windows people, and they'd love an
excuse to complain to management about the backup requirements
of my Linux servers. grub-legacy and grub-pc are non-starters
for me for that reason. Until now, only lilo, as far as I knew,
met all my requirements. It now appears that extlinux may also
work. I'll soon know.

--
.'`. Stephen Powell
: :' :
`. `'`
`-


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Old 05-25-2010, 03:42 PM
Stephen Powell
 
Default Re (2): lilo removal in squeeze (or, "please test grub2")

On Mon, 24 May 2010 17:29:54 -0400 (EDT), Peter Easthope wrote:
> Stephen Powell wrote:
>> (3) The need for special backup requirements will be
>> used by the opponents of Linux at my place of employment
>> to oppose further deployments of Linux, ...
>
> What about the carrot approach? Find an even better
> backup method, compatible with Grub 2 and appealing
> to your management for its efficiency.

You're missing the point. The main selling point to management
is that Linux is free. If they have to buy new backup software
in order to accommodate Linux' backup requirements, that will
kill it on the spot. Whatever boot loader I use must not
require new backup software or impose special backup requirements.
And its not just money. As a rule, people like what they know.
The backup people are Windows people, and they'd love an
excuse to complain to management about the backup requirements
of my Linux servers. grub-legacy and grub-pc are non-starters
for me for that reason. Until now, only lilo, as far as I knew,
met all my requirements. It now appears that extlinux may also
work. I'll soon know.

--
.'`. Stephen Powell
: :' :
`. `'`
`-


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Old 05-25-2010, 03:51 PM
Mark
 
Default Re (2): lilo removal in squeeze (or, "please test grub2")

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Stephen Powell <zlinuxman@wowway.com> wrote:

On Mon, 24 May 2010 17:29:54 -0400 (EDT), Peter Easthope wrote:

> Stephen Powell wrote:

>> (3) The need for special backup requirements will be

>> used by the opponents of Linux at my place of employment

>> to oppose further deployments of Linux, ...

>

> What about the carrot approach? *Find an even better

> backup method, compatible with Grub 2 and appealing

> to your management for its efficiency.



You're missing the point. *The main selling point to management

is that Linux is free. *If they have to buy new backup software

in order to accommodate Linux' backup requirements, that will

kill it on the spot. *Whatever boot loader I use must not

require new backup software or impose special backup requirements.

And its not just money. *As a rule, people like what they know.

The backup people are Windows people, and they'd love an

excuse to complain to management about the backup requirements

of my Linux servers. *grub-legacy and grub-pc are non-starters

for me for that reason. *Until now, only lilo, as far as I knew,

met all my requirements. *It now appears that extlinux may also

work. *I'll soon know.

Clonezilla is free, and when using the "saveparts" option to save an image of one partition and not the full hard drive, it includes the MBR and associated data.* You can then drop that partition image onto a new/blank disk, that does not have anything in the MBR, and once Clonezilla restores the image to the new partition, will put the MBR in place and the machine boots on its own the next time, with no extra work (I just did this last week with a new hard drive).* This has been my experience with using Clonezilla and Lenny, at least.* So it may help in your case.


Mark
 
Old 05-25-2010, 03:51 PM
Mark
 
Default Re (2): lilo removal in squeeze (or, "please test grub2")

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Stephen Powell <zlinuxman@wowway.com> wrote:

On Mon, 24 May 2010 17:29:54 -0400 (EDT), Peter Easthope wrote:

> Stephen Powell wrote:

>> (3) The need for special backup requirements will be

>> used by the opponents of Linux at my place of employment

>> to oppose further deployments of Linux, ...

>

> What about the carrot approach? *Find an even better

> backup method, compatible with Grub 2 and appealing

> to your management for its efficiency.



You're missing the point. *The main selling point to management

is that Linux is free. *If they have to buy new backup software

in order to accommodate Linux' backup requirements, that will

kill it on the spot. *Whatever boot loader I use must not

require new backup software or impose special backup requirements.

And its not just money. *As a rule, people like what they know.

The backup people are Windows people, and they'd love an

excuse to complain to management about the backup requirements

of my Linux servers. *grub-legacy and grub-pc are non-starters

for me for that reason. *Until now, only lilo, as far as I knew,

met all my requirements. *It now appears that extlinux may also

work. *I'll soon know.

Clonezilla is free, and when using the "saveparts" option to save an image of one partition and not the full hard drive, it includes the MBR and associated data.* You can then drop that partition image onto a new/blank disk, that does not have anything in the MBR, and once Clonezilla restores the image to the new partition, will put the MBR in place and the machine boots on its own the next time, with no extra work (I just did this last week with a new hard drive).* This has been my experience with using Clonezilla and Lenny, at least.* So it may help in your case.


Mark
 
Old 05-25-2010, 04:03 PM
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr."
 
Default Re (2): lilo removal in squeeze (or, "please test grub2")

On Tuesday 25 May 2010 10:42:34 Stephen Powell wrote:
> On Mon, 24 May 2010 17:29:54 -0400 (EDT), Peter Easthope wrote:
> > Stephen Powell wrote:
> >> (3) The need for special backup requirements will be
> >> used by the opponents of Linux at my place of employment
> >> to oppose further deployments of Linux, ...
> >
> > What about the carrot approach? Find an even better
> > backup method, compatible with Grub 2 and appealing
> > to your management for its efficiency.
>
> You're missing the point. The main selling point to management
> is that Linux is free.

No software is entirely without cost. Free Software is no exception. There
are usually no up-front licening fees, sure. However, volunteers work on
whatever they like, and if no one volunteers to maintain and support your
software you may have to pay for that.

Even with volunteers providing maintenance and support, your specific
requirements may differ from their goals and that will require effort to
resolve.

> If they have to buy new backup software
> in order to accommodate Linux' backup requirements, that will
> kill it on the spot. Whatever boot loader I use must not
> require new backup software or impose special backup requirements.
> And its not just money. As a rule, people like what they know.

If money is the issue, move to a free backup solution. Amanda and Zmanda both
support backing up a number of OSes, including Linux and Windows and are free
software, last I checked.

You've already proven free solutions in your own servers. Moving to a free
solution for backups is a next logical step.

Also, volunteers are rarely concerned with "market share", losing your
management as users is not necessarily a concern to them. If it is a concern
for you, you may have to put forward some additional effort to address your
management's issues.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =.
bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/
 
Old 05-25-2010, 05:00 PM
Stephen Powell
 
Default Re (2): lilo removal in squeeze (or, "please test grub2")

On Tue, 25 May 2010 11:51:11 -0400 (EDT), Mark <mamarcac@gmail.com>
> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Stephen Powell <zlinuxman@wowway.com>wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 May 2010 17:29:54 -0400 (EDT), Peter Easthope wrote:
>>> Stephen Powell wrote:
>>>> (3) The need for special backup requirements will be
>>>> used by the opponents of Linux at my place of employment
>>>> to oppose further deployments of Linux, ...
>>>
>>> What about the carrot approach? Find an even better
>>> backup method, compatible with Grub 2 and appealing
>>> to your management for its efficiency.
>>
>> You're missing the point. The main selling point to management
>> is that Linux is free. ...
>
> Clonezilla is free, and when using the "saveparts" option to save an image
> of one partition and not the full hard drive, it includes the MBR and
> associated data. You can then drop that partition image onto a new/blank
> disk, that does not have anything in the MBR, and once Clonezilla restores
> the image to the new partition, will put the MBR in place and the machine
> boots on its own the next time, with no extra work (I just did this last
> week with a new hard drive). This has been my experience with using
> Clonezilla and Lenny, at least. So it may help in your case.

Perhaps so. But it's not what the backup people know. They're very
comfortable with the backup software that they know and love for
backing up their Windows servers, which was purchased with Windows servers
in mind. Do you think they're going to redo their whole backup architecture
just for a few Linux servers? If I want to play in their sandbox, I have
to play by their rules. That's the political reality. At our shop, Linux
has a small beachhead on a vast continent controlled by Windows. Over time,
the role of Linux may expand to the point where Linux is actually thought
about and planned for when decisions are made. But that day is not today.

--
.'`. Stephen Powell
: :' :
`. `'`
`-


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Old 05-25-2010, 05:00 PM
Stephen Powell
 
Default Re (2): lilo removal in squeeze (or, "please test grub2")

On Tue, 25 May 2010 11:51:11 -0400 (EDT), Mark <mamarcac@gmail.com>
> On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Stephen Powell <zlinuxman@wowway.com>wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 May 2010 17:29:54 -0400 (EDT), Peter Easthope wrote:
>>> Stephen Powell wrote:
>>>> (3) The need for special backup requirements will be
>>>> used by the opponents of Linux at my place of employment
>>>> to oppose further deployments of Linux, ...
>>>
>>> What about the carrot approach? Find an even better
>>> backup method, compatible with Grub 2 and appealing
>>> to your management for its efficiency.
>>
>> You're missing the point. The main selling point to management
>> is that Linux is free. ...
>
> Clonezilla is free, and when using the "saveparts" option to save an image
> of one partition and not the full hard drive, it includes the MBR and
> associated data. You can then drop that partition image onto a new/blank
> disk, that does not have anything in the MBR, and once Clonezilla restores
> the image to the new partition, will put the MBR in place and the machine
> boots on its own the next time, with no extra work (I just did this last
> week with a new hard drive). This has been my experience with using
> Clonezilla and Lenny, at least. So it may help in your case.

Perhaps so. But it's not what the backup people know. They're very
comfortable with the backup software that they know and love for
backing up their Windows servers, which was purchased with Windows servers
in mind. Do you think they're going to redo their whole backup architecture
just for a few Linux servers? If I want to play in their sandbox, I have
to play by their rules. That's the political reality. At our shop, Linux
has a small beachhead on a vast continent controlled by Windows. Over time,
the role of Linux may expand to the point where Linux is actually thought
about and planned for when decisions are made. But that day is not today.

--
.'`. Stephen Powell
: :' :
`. `'`
`-


--
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Old 05-25-2010, 05:12 PM
Stephen Powell
 
Default Re (2): lilo removal in squeeze (or, "please test grub2")

On Tue, 25 May 2010 12:03:17 -0400 (EDT), Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> Stephen Powell wrote:
>>
>> You're missing the point. The main selling point to management
>> is that Linux is free.
>
> No software is entirely without cost. Free Software is no exception. There
> are usually no up-front licening fees, sure. However, volunteers work on
> whatever they like, and if no one volunteers to maintain and support your
> software you may have to pay for that.
>
> Even with volunteers providing maintenance and support, your specific
> requirements may differ from their goals and that will require effort to
> resolve.
> ...
> Also, volunteers are rarely concerned with "market share", losing your
> management as users is not necessarily a concern to them. If it is a concern
> for you, you may have to put forward some additional effort to address your
> management's issues.

All excellent points, Boyd. Fortunately in this case, extlinux appears
to be a viable solution. I'll soon know. The guy I need to see about
setting a test server to test the backup and restore scenario
has been off work with a sick child for the past couple of days, but when
he gets back I'll try to prove that it is 100% compatible with our
backup software.

--
.'`. Stephen Powell
: :' :
`. `'`
`-


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Old 05-25-2010, 05:12 PM
Stephen Powell
 
Default Re (2): lilo removal in squeeze (or, "please test grub2")

On Tue, 25 May 2010 12:03:17 -0400 (EDT), Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> Stephen Powell wrote:
>>
>> You're missing the point. The main selling point to management
>> is that Linux is free.
>
> No software is entirely without cost. Free Software is no exception. There
> are usually no up-front licening fees, sure. However, volunteers work on
> whatever they like, and if no one volunteers to maintain and support your
> software you may have to pay for that.
>
> Even with volunteers providing maintenance and support, your specific
> requirements may differ from their goals and that will require effort to
> resolve.
> ...
> Also, volunteers are rarely concerned with "market share", losing your
> management as users is not necessarily a concern to them. If it is a concern
> for you, you may have to put forward some additional effort to address your
> management's issues.

All excellent points, Boyd. Fortunately in this case, extlinux appears
to be a viable solution. I'll soon know. The guy I need to see about
setting a test server to test the backup and restore scenario
has been off work with a sick child for the past couple of days, but when
he gets back I'll try to prove that it is 100% compatible with our
backup software.

--
.'`. Stephen Powell
: :' :
`. `'`
`-


--
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