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Old 02-01-2010, 03:06 PM
Thierry Chatelet
 
Default don't upgrade grub or grub-pc ! what's wrong with LILO ?

On Monday 01 February 2010 16:24:58 Brian Denheyer wrote:
> Imagine by surprise when I finished upgrading unstable and ended up
> with a system that wouldn't boot.
>
> And I'm not the only one, judging from the bug list.
>
> So notice to those running unstable, DON'T UPGRADE GRUB !
>
> So you're probably wondering what my question is :-)
>
> Is there any good reason for a system to use grub instead of lilo ?
>
> Grub appears to me to be a annoying, complicated, and hard to
> understand, and those are it's good points :-(
>
> I never had a problem with LILO, but for some reason Deb decided to
> make grub the default.
>
>
> Brian
>

I am using sid too, but I installed apt-listbugs, which told me not to upgrade
grub-pc. So I was saved from it. Generaly I think it is a good idea to have
apt-listbugs.
Thierry


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Old 02-01-2010, 03:06 PM
Jens Van Broeckhoven
 
Default don't upgrade grub or grub-pc ! what's wrong with LILO ?

On Monday 01 February 2010 16:24:58 Brian Denheyer wrote:
> Imagine by surprise when I finished upgrading unstable and ended up
> with a system that wouldn't boot.
>
> And I'm not the only one, judging from the bug list.
>
> So notice to those running unstable, DON'T UPGRADE GRUB !
>
> So you're probably wondering what my question is :-)
>
> Is there any good reason for a system to use grub instead of lilo ?
>
> Grub appears to me to be a annoying, complicated, and hard to
> understand, and those are it's good points :-(
>
> I never had a problem with LILO, but for some reason Deb decided to
> make grub the default.
>
>
> Brian
>
Not all GRUB functions are supported in LILO (I would mostly miss the the
network boot).

Debian isn't linux only , kfreebsd and gnu-hurd don't work with LiLo (... and
even some Linux ports would have problems with it as well).

Debian needs a default and grub is more suitable in most cases.
Nothing will stop you from using LiLo if that's what you prefer.

Jens.


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Old 02-01-2010, 03:38 PM
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr."
 
Default don't upgrade grub or grub-pc ! what's wrong with LILO ?

On Monday 01 February 2010 10:06:50 Jens Van Broeckhoven wrote:
> Debian needs a default and grub is more suitable in most cases.

It's only the default if you are using d-i. Oft times, I will install Debian
through the debootstrap method, from whatever live CD/DVD I have sitting
around. In that case, you don't get a bootloader until you install one (of
your choice).

> Nothing will stop you from using LiLo if that's what you prefer.

Also, once GRUB is purged from your system, I don't know any debian package
that will attempt to pull it back in.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =.
bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/
 
Old 02-01-2010, 04:27 PM
Stephen Powell
 
Default don't upgrade grub or grub-pc ! what's wrong with LILO ?

On Mon, 1 Feb 2010 10:24:58 -0500 (EST), Brian Denheyer wrote:
> Imagine by surprise when I finished upgrading unstable and ended up
> with a system that wouldn't boot.
> And I'm not the only one, judging from the bug list.
> So notice to those running unstable, DON'T UPGRADE GRUB !
> So you're probably wondering what my question is :-)
> Is there any good reason for a system to use grub instead of lilo ?
> Grub appears to me to be a annoying, complicated, and hard to
> understand, and those are it's good points :-(
> I never had a problem with LILO, but for some reason Deb decided to
> make grub the default.

GRUB stands for GRand Unified Bootloader. As I understand it,
the idea was to create a single bootloader that could be used on
a number of different hardware platforms, rather than for each
hardware platform to have its own unique bootloader. There were
other design goals for grub too, but that was the main one.

But as chief engineer Montgomery Scott (better known as "Scotty")
says in the movie "Star Trek III: The Search for Spock",

"The more they over-tink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop
up the drain."

And it looks like the drain just got stopped up.
The goals of grub are laudable. But the boot process is a very
hardware specific thing, and trying to create a "one size fits all"
boot loader that works on all platforms is a daunting task.
Neither grub nor grub2 works on the s390 platform, for example.
It uses a program called zipl as its boot loader.

If lilo works for you, and you're happy with it,
then stick with it. That's my advice, for what it's worth.


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Old 02-02-2010, 12:42 PM
Aioanei Rares
 
Default don't upgrade grub or grub-pc ! what's wrong with LILO ?

A more practical approach : what should the average user do in order to get his/her Debian back after this GRUB bug?


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Old 02-02-2010, 01:18 PM
Tom Furie
 
Default don't upgrade grub or grub-pc ! what's wrong with LILO ?

On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 03:42:57PM +0200, Aioanei Rares wrote:
> A more practical approach : what should the average user do in order to get his/her Debian back after this GRUB bug?

One option would be to boot from a CD (installer, liveCD, whatever),
chroot into Debian and revert grub to an earlier version.

Cheers,
Tom

--
Hegel was right when he said that we learn from history that man
can never learn anything from history. -George Bernard Shaw
 
Old 02-02-2010, 01:32 PM
Osamu Aoki
 
Default don't upgrade grub or grub-pc ! what's wrong with LILO ?

On Mon, Feb 01, 2010 at 07:24:58AM -0800, Brian Denheyer wrote:
> Is there any good reason for a system to use grub instead of lilo ?

Yes.

Lilo loads kernel by its sector address on harddisk. So if you update
its image while with the same file name, you need to update pointer data
for lilo.

Grub cab understand ext2 FS and identify and load updated kernel without
extra work.

> Grub appears to me to be a annoying, complicated, and hard to
> understand, and those are it's good points :-(

I understand... Grub using confusing artitin name (grub and grub2 use different
naming convention) is more than annoying to me. But lefe goes on wile
we get used to it.

> I never had a problem with LILO, but for some reason Deb decided to
> make grub the default.

I do not know ....

Osamu


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Old 02-02-2010, 02:32 PM
Jon Dowland
 
Default don't upgrade grub or grub-pc ! what's wrong with LILO ?

On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 03:42:57PM +0200, Aioanei Rares
wrote:
> A more practical approach : what should the average user
> do in order to get his/her Debian back after this GRUB
> bug?

Stick to stable in future, that's what.
 
Old 02-02-2010, 02:47 PM
Stephen Powell
 
Default don't upgrade grub or grub-pc ! what's wrong with LILO ?

On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:18:30 -0500 (EST), Tom Furie wrote:
> One option would be to boot from a CD (installer, liveCD, whatever),
> chroot into Debian and revert grub to an earlier version.

As has been addressed in other recent posts, downgrading a package
to a previous version once a newer version has been installed
is unsupported and often difficult. If there is a different package
that performs the same function, it is usually easier to deinstall
the problem package and install the alternative package in its place.
Laying my personal biases aside and considering the problem as
objectively as I can, I would recommend installing an alternate
bootloader, if possible, rather than attempting to downgrade the
existing bootloader. But each user must decide for himself what
works best in his situation.


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Old 02-02-2010, 04:59 PM
Tom Furie
 
Default don't upgrade grub or grub-pc ! what's wrong with LILO ?

On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 10:47:17AM -0500, Stephen Powell wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 09:18:30 -0500 (EST), Tom Furie wrote:
> > One option would be to boot from a CD (installer, liveCD, whatever),
> > chroot into Debian and revert grub to an earlier version.
>
> As has been addressed in other recent posts, downgrading a package
> to a previous version once a newer version has been installed
> is unsupported and often difficult. If there is a different package
> that performs the same function, it is usually easier to deinstall
> the problem package and install the alternative package in its place.
> Laying my personal biases aside and considering the problem as
> objectively as I can, I would recommend installing an alternate
> bootloader, if possible, rather than attempting to downgrade the
> existing bootloader. But each user must decide for himself what
> works best in his situation.

In general I agree with you, but in this case it should be fairly
trivial since very little depends on grub, and the dependencies between
the versions haven't changed, to purge the current version and install
an earlier one. I know, for example that 1.98~20100126-1 still works.

Cheers,
Tom
 

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