FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Debian > Debian User

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 11-21-2009, 04:53 PM
Neal Hogan
 
Default Is Squeeze right for me?

On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 11:44 AM, John Jason Jordan <johnxj@comcast.net> wrote:
> I have several years of experience with Ubuntu, but I have never looked
> inside. I'm just a pointy-clicky desktop user. How things work has
> never been of interest to me except when they don't work. Even then I
> just learn enough to fix the problem and go back to living.
>
> However, several Linux friends have suggested it's time for me to move
> on. According to the advice I receive I no longer need the Ubuntu
> training wheels and I would be better served by going to a less
> newbie-oriented distro. Perhaps they are right, but I grew up with
> Synaptic and .deb files, and I really don't want to leave the Debian
> world. Therefore, this morning I installed testing on a new hard disk,
> leaving my old Ubuntu hard disk untouched so I can always go back to it.
>
> Having spent just a day in testing I am not happy with the quantity of
> bugs. Yes, I know it is called "testing" for a reason. And I am happy
> to do my part to help fix problems. Yet I need a computer that I can
> use for real work. But at the same time I want the latest and greatest.
> I need OOo 3.1 and Scribus 1.3.5.1 and the most recent versions of
> several other apps that I live in all day long. The stable versions of
> Debian are not sufficiently cutting edge for me. Or have I
> misunderstood that?
>
> The local Linux friends who thought I should move on from Ubuntu
> suggested testing as the closest in the Debian world to the Ubuntu way
> of doing things. After today I am thinking they were wrong.

The following is my initial reaction and it may be something you've
thought of. If so, I apologize.

I'm not sure of the relationship between the ubuntu world and the
debian world and I'm not sure what you mean when you spent a day in
testing, but might I suggest that you dual boot ubuntu with debian
(perhaps test all of the versions and maybe even other distros). There
is software out there that can move your partitions around so that
your ubuntu set-up isn't affected.

God luck!
-Neal


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
 
Old 11-21-2009, 04:54 PM
Dave Witbrodt
 
Default Is Squeeze right for me?

Having spent just a day in testing I am not happy with the quantity of
bugs.

[...]

But at the same time I want the latest and greatest.


These 2 comments are a contradiction.

Make a decision between those two, and you will have made your decision
regarding whether to switch away from Ubuntu.




The local Linux friends who thought I should move on from Ubuntu
suggested testing as the closest in the Debian world to the Ubuntu way
of doing things. After today I am thinking they were wrong.


They were right only if YOU are willing to learn to deal with breakage
caused by "the latest and greatest" packages. If you don't want to do
that kind of work, then they were wrong.




I need advice.


Use Debian stable ("Lenny") and make yourself familiar with backports.org.


HTH,
Dave W.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
 
Old 11-21-2009, 05:05 PM
Chris
 
Default Is Squeeze right for me?

On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 12:54:18 -0500
Dave Witbrodt <dawitbro@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> > Having spent just a day in testing I am not happy with the quantity
> > of bugs.
> [...]
> > But at the same time I want the latest and greatest.
>
> These 2 comments are a contradiction.
>
> Make a decision between those two, and you will have made your
> decision regarding whether to switch away from Ubuntu.
>
>
> > The local Linux friends who thought I should move on from Ubuntu
> > suggested testing as the closest in the Debian world to the Ubuntu
> > way of doing things. After today I am thinking they were wrong.
>
> They were right only if YOU are willing to learn to deal with
> breakage caused by "the latest and greatest" packages. If you don't
> want to do that kind of work, then they were wrong.
>
>
> > I need advice.
>
> Use Debian stable ("Lenny") and make yourself familiar with
> backports.org.
>

That being said, be prepared to be disappointed with Lenny. I mean that
not in a bad way. While Ubu 9.10 (assuming) is nice and flashy, Lenny
is not (out of the box).

However, Lenny (to me) is solid as hell. But as Dave mentioned, there
are ways to get some of the more up to date apps etc.

In the end, you will need to be willing to tinker a bit ... and that,
is never a bad thing!


--
Best regards,

Chris

() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments

"There's no place like 127.0.0.1"


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
 
Old 11-21-2009, 05:34 PM
Brent Clark
 
Default Is Squeeze right for me?

On 21/11/2009 19:44, John Jason Jordan wrote:

The local Linux friends who thought I should move on from Ubuntu
suggested testing as the closest in the Debian world to the Ubuntu way
of doing things. After today I am thinking they were wrong.

I need advice.



Hiya

For anything else .... use Debian, or FreeBSD for that that matter ,
but for Desktop use Ubuntu (or even the new Fedora / Mandriva). Im of
the opinion, your friends are ill advising you.


As I type this email, Im using Ubuntu Karmic on my Dell XPS, and I think
its great. At my work Im run Debian Testing as my workstation, other
than a few compiz issues when compiz segfaults, its ok.


For servers, and and I manage quite a few, Lenny is great for servers...
but old for Desktop.


HTH

Brent Clark


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
 
Old 11-21-2009, 05:41 PM
Lisi
 
Default Is Squeeze right for me?

On Saturday 21 November 2009 18:05:40 Chris wrote:
> While Ubu 9.10 (assuming) is *nice and flashy*

To some of us, well one of me anyway, that is a contradiction in terms.
Something cannot be both nice and flashy - it must be either or. ;-)

Lisi



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
 
Old 11-21-2009, 05:47 PM
Chris
 
Default Is Squeeze right for me?

On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 18:41:18 +0000
Lisi <lisi.reisz@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday 21 November 2009 18:05:40 Chris wrote:
> > While Ubu 9.10 (assuming) is *nice and flashy*
>
> To some of us, well one of me anyway, that is a contradiction in
> terms. Something cannot be both nice and flashy - it must be either
> or. ;-)
>
> Lisi
>
>
>

... Redefined... Ubu 9.10 (assuming) is both nice (to use, as in ease)
AND flashy (visually). Not a contradiction at all.

Perhaps I should have taken the time to define that however, knowing
the Op was using Ubu to begin with, I assumed the Op knew exactly what
I meant and how it was meant.

--
Best regards,

Chris

() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail
/ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments

"There's no place like 127.0.0.1"


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
 
Old 11-21-2009, 06:36 PM
Paul E Condon
 
Default Is Squeeze right for me?

On 20091121_094447, John Jason Jordan wrote:
> I have several years of experience with Ubuntu, but I have never looked
> inside. I'm just a pointy-clicky desktop user. How things work has
> never been of interest to me except when they don't work. Even then I
> just learn enough to fix the problem and go back to living.
>
> However, several Linux friends have suggested it's time for me to move
> on. According to the advice I receive I no longer need the Ubuntu
> training wheels and I would be better served by going to a less
> newbie-oriented distro. Perhaps they are right, but I grew up with
> Synaptic and .deb files, and I really don't want to leave the Debian
> world. Therefore, this morning I installed testing on a new hard disk,
> leaving my old Ubuntu hard disk untouched so I can always go back to it.
>
> Having spent just a day in testing I am not happy with the quantity of
> bugs. Yes, I know it is called "testing" for a reason. And I am happy
> to do my part to help fix problems. Yet I need a computer that I can
> use for real work. But at the same time I want the latest and greatest.
> I need OOo 3.1 and Scribus 1.3.5.1 and the most recent versions of
> several other apps that I live in all day long. The stable versions of
> Debian are not sufficiently cutting edge for me. Or have I
> misunderstood that?
>
> The local Linux friends who thought I should move on from Ubuntu
> suggested testing as the closest in the Debian world to the Ubuntu way
> of doing things. After today I am thinking they were wrong.
>
> I need advice.

A few questions for you to think about. The tone may seem confrontational
but it's really up to you, so there is no need to answer them publically,
just think about what your answers really are, and then act accordingly.

Where was the Ubuntu disk when you installed Squeeze on the new disk?
If you had left it in the computer, you should have had a opportunity
to make your computer dual-boot trivially by simply answering yes to
a question from the Debian installer.

What kind of computer work is 'real work' for you? Can it be done on a
dual boot set up?

If you make your computer dual boot would you expect to have separate
/home directories for the two components of the dual? Or would you
require some sort of shared /home?

How can you be sure you are seeing bugs in Squeeze? Maybe the defaults
of Debian are just different from what you expect from what you
learned to expect in Ubuntu.

Why really do you want 'latest and greatest'? Or do you just think you
need L&G because you use OO and Scribus and think that versions in
Debian are 'too old' without having actually testing them for the
features that you actually use?

Are your friends tiring of giving you help on making Ubuntu do things
that are not properly part of the Ubuntu User Experience?

I only know Ubuntu from hearsay. You confirm my impression that it is
targeted for newbies and/or casual users. I think you will have great
difficulty becoming a adept 'power user' if you stick with Ubuntu. To
become a power user of Ubuntu, first switch to Debian, become a power
user, and then switch back to Ubuntu (if you wish).

If you did not have the Ubuntu disk in your computer when you installed
Squeeze, and want to make your system dual-boot, you probably don't need
to do a re-install. Instead, re-install the physical HD that has Ubuntu
on it. And ask for help on this list about re-configuring grub to see it
and offer it as a boot option.

I'm not a power user, I got started with Debian before Ubuntu existed
and have never felt a need to change. Or even investigate any other
distribution.

You might be completely satisfied with Lenny. As a user I am very skeptical
of L&G. But you have to test it for your actual work. And Lenny will soon
be replaced by Squeeze so maybe wait for Squeeze to be released and revisit
this issue then.

HTH
--
Paul E Condon
pecondon@mesanetworks.net


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
 
Old 11-21-2009, 07:09 PM
Robert Hodgins
 
Default Is Squeeze right for me?

On Sat, 2009-11-21 at 09:44 -0800, John Jason Jordan wrote:
> I have several years of experience with Ubuntu, but I have never looked
> inside. I'm just a pointy-clicky desktop user. How things work has
> never been of interest to me except when they don't work. Even then I
> just learn enough to fix the problem and go back to living.

A reasonable approach to computers.

> However, several Linux friends have suggested it's time for me to move
> on. According to the advice I receive I no longer need the Ubuntu
> training wheels and I would be better served by going to a less
> newbie-oriented distro.

If you are okay with Ubuntu, why would they suggest this?

> Perhaps they are right, but I grew up with
> Synaptic and .deb files, and I really don't want to leave the Debian
> world. Therefore, this morning I installed testing on a new hard disk,
> leaving my old Ubuntu hard disk untouched so I can always go back to it.

Good call with the hard drive.

> Having spent just a day in testing I am not happy with the quantity of
> bugs. Yes, I know it is called "testing" for a reason.

Yep, there can be bugs...

> Yet I need a computer that I can
> use for real work. But at the same time I want the latest and greatest.
> I need OOo 3.1 and Scribus 1.3.5.1 and the most recent versions of
> several other apps that I live in all day long. The stable versions of
> Debian are not sufficiently cutting edge for me. Or have I
> misunderstood that?

Nah, you got that. Debian stable is not cutting edge.

>
> The local Linux friends who thought I should move on from Ubuntu
> suggested testing as the closest in the Debian world to the Ubuntu way
> of doing things. After today I am thinking they were wrong.
>
> I need advice.

I'd say stay with Ubuntu if you are comfy with it. The latest and
greatest of some/most apps (openoffice, thunderbird, firefox, etc.) can
be installed using debs (or "what-evers") from the relevant
application's website.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
 
Old 11-21-2009, 07:10 PM
John Jason Jordan
 
Default Is Squeeze right for me?

On Sat, 21 Nov 2009 12:47:38 -0600
Chris <racerx@makeworld.com> dijo:

> ... Redefined... Ubu 9.10 (assuming) is both nice (to use, as in ease)
> AND flashy (visually). Not a contradiction at all.
>
> Perhaps I should have taken the time to define that however, knowing
> the Op was using Ubu to begin with, I assumed the Op knew exactly what
> I meant and how it was meant.

First, thanks to all who responded. I should have given more detail,
but it's hard to think of everything when writing an e-mail in a list
like this. My failure to communicate required many to make assumptions
about my needs.

I started with Linux with a brand new laptop that I bought for school
four years ago. I found a local user group who helped me get started.
The computer had a 15.4 inch widescreen capable of 1680 x 1050, and I
was adamant in getting that working with 64-bit Linux. At the time I
tried Mandriva, Suse, and several others. No amount of tweaking could
get the display to run better than 1024 x 768 Vesa. After several days
of frustration I tried a Breezy live CD. The screen came up
automatically at 1680 x 1050. That was it. Shuttleworth made another
sale.

Over the years I have often tried live CDs of other distros, but I
always came back to Ubuntu. Two years ago I built myself a new desktop
computer to use as a music server. I installed Debian on it and tried
really hard to get things to work. Eventually I ended up putting Ubuntu
on it.

Today I have two main motivations for going to Debian:

1) It's time to expand my knowledge of Linux, and I have no huge
computer projects underway at the moment. I can afford the time to
fiddle around for a while. At the same time, my experience with other
distros over the years leads me to reject any distro that is not Debian
based. No package management system can hold a candle to Debian. I want
my Synaptic.

2) I write and publish textbooks. In the past I used InDesign on
Windows, but now I am in the Linux world. I recently did a new textbook
and had to figure out what works best for me in Linux. I spent a week
trying to get my head around Lyx-Latex-Tex, but finally gave up. I
found my home in Scribus, which I love. But I want to use 1.3.5.1,
which is close, but not yet stable. In discussing issues on the Scribus
e-list it is clear that the Scribus developers mince few words in their
dislike of Ubuntu. Scribus is based on Qt, and apparently the Ubuntu
people messed around with some of the Qt libraries. They strongly
recommend Fedora, Debian or OpenSuse.

So there you have it. Debian is the common denominator for me. The only
issue is whether I should have used stable instead of testing.

At the time I wrote my original message I was feeling extreme
frustration with the bugs in Nautilus on testing. But Márcio H.
Parreiras just gave me a solution (thanks!) - gconf-editor allows me to
change the configuration without needing to use the Preferences button.
I feel much happier with testing now that I have Nautilus configured
the way I want it. I still have some troublesome apps to install
(realplayer, xaralx, foxit reader), but I had them working on Jaunty,
so I'm sure I can do the same on testing.

I don't mind that testing is probably not as stable as the current
incarnation of Ubuntu. And I am very willing to do my share of bug
reporting and participate as much as I can. I know nothing of
programming, but there are lots of other ways to contribute. In four
years of Ubuntu my "bean count" on the forums is over 1,000.

At the moment I think testing is the right fit for me. But if not,
well, it is installed on a brand new hard disk. My old hard disk with
Jaunty is untouched; all I have to do is put it back in the computer to
go back to Ubuntu. Or I can wipe out testing and install stable.

Thanks again for the viewpoints.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
 
Old 11-21-2009, 07:48 PM
AG
 
Default Is Squeeze right for me?

John Jason Jordan wrote:

I have several years of experience with Ubuntu, but I have never looked
inside. I'm just a pointy-clicky desktop user. How things work has
never been of interest to me except when they don't work. Even then I
just learn enough to fix the problem and go back to living.

Nothing wrong with that. Some like to tinker, some like to build from
scratch, some just like to use a computer as a tool in the course of
their living or have to in the work place.

However, several Linux friends have suggested it's time for me to move
on.
If Ubuntu works for you, then it doesn't really matter what distro you
use. Unless you are after "geek points" ? Being "cool" is not about the
computer OS you use - it comes from the kind of person you *are*.

According to the advice I receive I no longer need the Ubuntu
training wheels and I would be better served by going to a less
newbie-oriented distro. Perhaps they are right, but I grew up with
Synaptic and .deb files, and I really don't want to leave the Debian
world. Therefore, this morning I installed testing on a new hard disk,
leaving my old Ubuntu hard disk untouched so I can always go back to it.

I assume you physically removed the Ubuntu HD from the machine and that
the new HD you used to install Deb on is in good working order?

Having spent just a day in testing I am not happy with the quantity of
bugs.
No offence, but are these "bugs" in the sense of problems with the
software or might there be some PEBKAC going on?

Yes, I know it is called "testing" for a reason. And I am happy
to do my part to help fix problems. Yet I need a computer that I can
use for real work. But at the same time I want the latest and greatest.

Latest & greatest aren't really the best for work conditions - at least
if it is work that has some value for you (e.g. a source of income,
etc.). Latest & greatest software can & does break regularly, can have
any number of vulnerabilities and might be exploitable. Latest &
greatest software obviously has its place, but running latest & greatest
on a production system is *not* good computing practice. The decision
you probably should be considering is your breakage tolerance, the
reliability of your back-up routine, your security know-how, and how
much time you have available to restore and repair breakages. You would
be better off with having software that has been thoroughly break and
security tested, which is "stable" (or Lenny) in Debian world. Latest &
greatest are in sid or "experimental". But there are times when those
can have high overheads, and it is assumed that you know how to maintain
your own system when running something like that. Despite what modern
advertising might tell you, patience really is still a virtue. The
decision you should be looking to make at this point in time is what
your *need* is and what your *want* is and decide where your values
lie. Novelty does not necessarily mean better.
I need OOo 3.1

I run testing/ "Squeeze" and have OOo3.1.1
and Scribus 1.3.5.1
On
http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=scribus&searchon=names&suite=testi ng&section=all
you'll see that Scribus is 1.3.3.13dfsg~svn20081228-2 How critical is
the difference? Was there a new feature in 1.3.5.1 that you *need* or
is this simply a mad pursuit for novelty to keep up with friends?

and the most recent versions of
several other apps that I live in all day long.

Ditto the above?

The stable versions of
Debian are not sufficiently cutting edge for me. Or have I
misunderstood that?

"Cutting edge"? The question that you might want to consider asking is
less about "cutting edge" and more about whether the system is stable
and reliable, responsive given your hardware array, does it satisfy your
user-based needs? Stable is definitely "tried and tested" and nothing
except for the occasional security patches will be added to the code
base for Lenny. As a consequence, it is software that will work
reliably and as expected. If you want higher degrees of churn, which
will require you to spend a lot more time "under the hood", then try sid
or to be "uber cool" out-fox your buddies and give sidux a run for its
money. Nice and speedy distro, with all of the latest gizmos, but is
likely to require increased maintenance overhead from yourself. It's
all a question of how much you are prepared to give of your time and how
much you want to take without any effort on your part.

The local Linux friends who thought I should move on from Ubuntu
suggested testing as the closest in the Debian world to the Ubuntu way
of doing things. After today I am thinking they were wrong.

They might be right or wrong, depending on how you answered the
questions I raised above and those asked of you by others responding to
your query. Again, let me re-emphasise that using a computer is
something that you yourself do. When you are by yourself with your
computer it is pointless trying to keep up with them when you are
tearing your hair out at endless problems and text filled screens and
lost data/ crashed apps. Fixing a critically wrong system at a time
when even the hacker world has gone to sleep is a very lonely and
frustrating place to be, trust me.

I need advice.


It all depends on exactly *what* you *want* to hear as to whether or not
you consider it advice; however, I would suggest that you go back to
basics: what do you want a computer for and does Ubuntu currently
satisfy that need?


If the *only* reason that you are looking to change distros is to fit in
with what your friends expect of you, then (no offence!) you really do
have a different set of questions that you would probably benefit in the
long term from asking, rather than the specific set you are asking here,
and these are more likely to concern you yourself and your relationships
than a computer system.


Good luck in making your *own* mind up. Perhaps you might consider
asking a different query on the Ubuntu list, such as "How can I defend
my preference for Ubuntu against increasing peer pressure to change?"
and then stick to your guns once you've figure out what *you* want.



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 08:12 PM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright ©2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org