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"Douglas A. Tutty" 01-04-2008 01:30 AM

tapes best for backup?
 
One of the threads over at misc@openbsd.org has gone OT (for them) into
discussing backup media. The concensus there seems to be that tape
(e.g. DLT) is still the best for long-term storage (e.g. archives)
because CD/DVDs fade rather quickly while hard drives get "bit rot" over the
years and since they're not being run frequently you don't see error
messages appearing.

I'm wondering what people here on DU use. Lets say the archive size is
7 GB. It could fit on one DVD; one(?) or two USB sticks, SD cards, etc;
an old spare hard drive or a new dedicated hard drive in (presumably) an
external (USB, firewire, eSATA?) case.

Do people still use tape? I note that the drive prices for used drives
on eBay are quite low but then most (?) would need to add the
appropriate scsi card since I doubt they would be SATA compatible.

Other than rsyncing to another box, what do people use for
put-it-on-the-shelf archiving?

Doug.


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Andrew Perrin 01-04-2008 01:41 AM

tapes best for backup?
 
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:


One of the threads over at misc@openbsd.org has gone OT (for them) into
discussing backup media. The concensus there seems to be that tape
(e.g. DLT) is still the best for long-term storage (e.g. archives)
because CD/DVDs fade rather quickly while hard drives get "bit rot" over the
years and since they're not being run frequently you don't see error
messages appearing.

I'm wondering what people here on DU use. Lets say the archive size is
7 GB. It could fit on one DVD; one(?) or two USB sticks, SD cards, etc;
an old spare hard drive or a new dedicated hard drive in (presumably) an
external (USB, firewire, eSATA?) case.

Do people still use tape? I note that the drive prices for used drives
on eBay are quite low but then most (?) would need to add the
appropriate scsi card since I doubt they would be SATA compatible.

Other than rsyncing to another box, what do people use for
put-it-on-the-shelf archiving?




I use DDS4 drives: one at work, one at home. The ones I have are USB which
is nice. They work out-of-the-box with standard st driver in the kernel.


http://h18003.www1.hp.com/products/storageworks/dat40usb/index.html

Andy

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew J Perrin - andrew_perrin (at) unc.edu - http://perrin.socsci.unc.edu
Associate Professor of Sociology; Book Review Editor, _Social Forces_
University of North Carolina - CB#3210, Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3210 USA





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Raquel 01-04-2008 01:56 AM

tapes best for backup?
 
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 21:30:57 -0500
"Douglas A. Tutty" <dtutty@porchlight.ca> wrote:

> One of the threads over at misc@openbsd.org has gone OT (for them)
> into discussing backup media. The concensus there seems to be that
> tape (e.g. DLT) is still the best for long-term storage (e.g.
> archives) because CD/DVDs fade rather quickly while hard drives get
> "bit rot" over the years and since they're not being run frequently
> you don't see error messages appearing.
>
> I'm wondering what people here on DU use. Lets say the archive
> size is 7 GB. It could fit on one DVD; one(?) or two USB sticks,
> SD cards, etc; an old spare hard drive or a new dedicated hard
> drive in (presumably) an external (USB, firewire, eSATA?) case.
>
> Do people still use tape? I note that the drive prices for used
> drives on eBay are quite low but then most (?) would need to add the
> appropriate scsi card since I doubt they would be SATA compatible.
>
> Other than rsyncing to another box, what do people use for
> put-it-on-the-shelf archiving?
>
> Doug.
>

Tape here.

--
Raquel
================================================== ==========
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are
always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
--Bertrand Russell


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Raquel 01-04-2008 02:09 AM

tapes best for backup?
 
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 18:56:01 -0800
Raquel <raquel@thericehouse.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 21:30:57 -0500
> "Douglas A. Tutty" <dtutty@porchlight.ca> wrote:
>
> > One of the threads over at misc@openbsd.org has gone OT (for them)
> > into discussing backup media. The concensus there seems to be
> > that tape (e.g. DLT) is still the best for long-term storage (e.g.
> > archives) because CD/DVDs fade rather quickly while hard drives
> > get "bit rot" over the years and since they're not being run
> > frequently you don't see error messages appearing.
> >
> > I'm wondering what people here on DU use. Lets say the archive
> > size is 7 GB. It could fit on one DVD; one(?) or two USB sticks,
> > SD cards, etc; an old spare hard drive or a new dedicated hard
> > drive in (presumably) an external (USB, firewire, eSATA?) case.
> >
> > Do people still use tape? I note that the drive prices for used
> > drives on eBay are quite low but then most (?) would need to add
> > the appropriate scsi card since I doubt they would be SATA
> > compatible.
> >
> > Other than rsyncing to another box, what do people use for
> > put-it-on-the-shelf archiving?
> >
> > Doug.
> >
>
> Tape here.
>
> --
> Raquel

I guess I should have added: DDS-4, SCSI

--
Raquel
================================================== ==========
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it
from religious conviction. --Blaise Pascal


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Ron Johnson 01-04-2008 02:56 AM

tapes best for backup?
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 01/03/08 20:30, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> One of the threads over at misc@openbsd.org has gone OT (for them) into
> discussing backup media. The concensus there seems to be that tape
> (e.g. DLT) is still the best for long-term storage (e.g. archives)

Do "they" even make new DLT 8000 drives anymore? We are happy with
SuperDLT2 drives, but are transitioning to LTO3.

> because CD/DVDs fade rather quickly while hard drives get "bit rot" over the
> years and since they're not being run frequently you don't see error
> messages appearing.
>
> I'm wondering what people here on DU use. Lets say the archive size is
> 7 GB. It could fit on one DVD; one(?) or two USB sticks, SD cards, etc;

7GB? That was a lot in 1992, when DLT-III was king, but now DLT IV
is ancient, and 7GB is -- bluntly -- chickenfeed.

> an old spare hard drive or a new dedicated hard drive in (presumably) an
> external (USB, firewire, eSATA?) case.
>
> Do people still use tape? I note that the drive prices for used drives
> on eBay are quite low but then most (?) would need to add the
> appropriate scsi card since I doubt they would be SATA compatible.

What kind? DLT8000 drives have been around now for 15 years

> Other than rsyncing to another box, what do people use for
> put-it-on-the-shelf archiving?

How important is the data? Personal or commercial?

If a reputable archival company like Iron Mountain offers on-line
storage, then I'd encrypt it and drop it on their servers.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

"I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian
because I hate vegetables!"
unknown
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"Larry Irwin" 01-04-2008 02:38 PM

tapes best for backup?
 
Tapes are still the lowest cost, reliable method for backups and archiving.

I've heard about issues with DLT's but never experienced any problems with
them.
The Travan drives are no longer produced, and they had a poorly designed
spindle/band mechanism that failed within a year in most cases...
The 1/4inch drives worked really well until the amount to backup hit around
10GB. They were just too slow.

DDS drives work well, but are not as fast as DLT and LTO drives.
When you have less than about 15-20GB, the DDS drives can do a backup and
verify in a reasonable time.
(and you can get the 20/40 DDS and related Adaptec controllers on the cheap
on EBay...)
Larger amounts push you into the DLT/LTO market so you can keep the backup
process under 6 hours.
The last LTO we installed was 800GB native and we estimate it could backup
and verify the native amount in less than 6 hours.


** Make Sure You Have "mt setblk 0" for DLT/LTO and most DDS drives or they
will run slowly **
** If the blocksize is set to 512 (the default at boot), they seek, seek,
seek,... instead of stream... **


To avoid the costs like you encounter with Iron Mountain, we set up a
relationship with another company in another state and provide offsite
backup services for each other's clients. (rsync or Sentinel). That solves
the client's question, "What if we have a local catastrophe like an
earthquake?" with more reasonable pricing.


Enjoy!
Larry


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"Douglas A. Tutty" 01-04-2008 03:23 PM

tapes best for backup?
 
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 09:56:19PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 01/03/08 20:30, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> > One of the threads over at misc@openbsd.org has gone OT (for them) into
> > discussing backup media. The concensus there seems to be that tape
> > (e.g. DLT) is still the best for long-term storage (e.g. archives)
>
> Do "they" even make new DLT 8000 drives anymore? We are happy with
> SuperDLT2 drives, but are transitioning to LTO3.
>
> > because CD/DVDs fade rather quickly while hard drives get "bit rot" over the
> > years and since they're not being run frequently you don't see error
> > messages appearing.
> >
> > I'm wondering what people here on DU use. Lets say the archive size is
> > 7 GB. It could fit on one DVD; one(?) or two USB sticks, SD cards, etc;
>
> 7GB? That was a lot in 1992, when DLT-III was king, but now DLT IV
> is ancient, and 7GB is -- bluntly -- chickenfeed.
>

Right. What about things of great sentimental value? E.g. family
photos? What about financial records? Sure 7 GB is chickenfeed. It
fits on one DVD. However, to put that on the shelf, what to use to make
it last?

> > an old spare hard drive or a new dedicated hard drive in (presumably) an
> > external (USB, firewire, eSATA?) case.
> >
> > Do people still use tape? I note that the drive prices for used drives
> > on eBay are quite low but then most (?) would need to add the
> > appropriate scsi card since I doubt they would be SATA compatible.
>
> What kind? DLT8000 drives have been around now for 15 years
>
> > Other than rsyncing to another box, what do people use for
> > put-it-on-the-shelf archiving?
>
> How important is the data? Personal or commercial?
>
> If a reputable archival company like Iron Mountain offers on-line
> storage, then I'd encrypt it and drop it on their servers.

So how do they store it? If they're just going to drop it onto a hard
drive and forget about it, how is that different than me putting it on 2
hard drives: one on a backup server that runs so that hard drive errors
show up; one in an external case that gets a fresh backup put on it
every month or so and goes to the bank's safety deposit box? Or, if
they're just going to archive it in a tape library, how is that
different than me putting it on a tape and putting that in the bank?

Doug.


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David Brodbeck 01-04-2008 04:12 PM

tapes best for backup?
 
On Jan 4, 2008, at 7:38 AM, Larry Irwin wrote:

I've heard about issues with DLT's but never experienced any
problems with them.


I thought DLT was OK when I was using it. It was certainly better
than the DDS/DAT drives it replaced -- those had to be cleaned every
other day, whereas the DLT drives only signaled for cleaning a couple
times a year. I had occasional load/unload reliability problems but I
think they were due to bad drive design on the unit I had, not any
inherent problem with the tape. (It was an Overland tape library, but
the real culprit seemed to be the Benchmark DLT1 drive inside.)


The main thing about DLT tapes is don't drop them. Treat them with
the kind of care you would hard disks. If you drop them the spindle
will get knocked out of position and they will likely jam the next
time they're loaded.


I would not buy a used tape drive. They're finicky mechanical devices
and you really want a warranty. Every time I've bought a used tape
drive thinking I was getting a good deal it's died within a month.



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Ron Johnson 01-04-2008 05:04 PM

tapes best for backup?
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 01/04/08 10:23, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 09:56:19PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> On 01/03/08 20:30, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
>>> One of the threads over at misc@openbsd.org has gone OT (for them) into
>>> discussing backup media. The concensus there seems to be that tape
>>> (e.g. DLT) is still the best for long-term storage (e.g. archives)
>> Do "they" even make new DLT 8000 drives anymore? We are happy with
>> SuperDLT2 drives, but are transitioning to LTO3.
>>
>>> because CD/DVDs fade rather quickly while hard drives get "bit rot" over the
>>> years and since they're not being run frequently you don't see error
>>> messages appearing.
>>>
>>> I'm wondering what people here on DU use. Lets say the archive size is
>>> 7 GB. It could fit on one DVD; one(?) or two USB sticks, SD cards, etc;
>> 7GB? That was a lot in 1992, when DLT-III was king, but now DLT IV
>> is ancient, and 7GB is -- bluntly -- chickenfeed.
>>
>
> Right. What about things of great sentimental value? E.g. family
> photos? What about financial records? Sure 7 GB is chickenfeed. It
> fits on one DVD. However, to put that on the shelf, what to use to make
> it last?

Chickenfeed is still important... to chickens.

So I wasn't trying to denigrate your 7GB of important data, but to
express that, in today's world, tape would be a radically cost-
inefficient means of storing only 7GB.

[snip]
>>
>> If a reputable archival company like Iron Mountain offers on-line
>> storage, then I'd encrypt it and drop it on their servers.
>
> So how do they store it? If they're just going to drop it onto a hard
> drive and forget about it, how is that different than me putting it on 2
> hard drives: one on a backup server that runs so that hard drive errors
> show up; one in an external case that gets a fresh backup put on it
> every month or so and goes to the bank's safety deposit box? Or, if
> they're just going to archive it in a tape library, how is that
> different than me putting it on a tape and putting that in the bank?

Nothing... except expertise. It's their *job* to monitor the SAN,
replacing failed disks, taking backups, etc.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

"I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian
because I hate vegetables!"
unknown
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Ron Johnson 01-04-2008 05:04 PM

tapes best for backup?
 
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 01/04/08 10:23, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 09:56:19PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> On 01/03/08 20:30, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
>>> One of the threads over at misc@openbsd.org has gone OT (for them) into
>>> discussing backup media. The concensus there seems to be that tape
>>> (e.g. DLT) is still the best for long-term storage (e.g. archives)
>> Do "they" even make new DLT 8000 drives anymore? We are happy with
>> SuperDLT2 drives, but are transitioning to LTO3.
>>
>>> because CD/DVDs fade rather quickly while hard drives get "bit rot" over the
>>> years and since they're not being run frequently you don't see error
>>> messages appearing.
>>>
>>> I'm wondering what people here on DU use. Lets say the archive size is
>>> 7 GB. It could fit on one DVD; one(?) or two USB sticks, SD cards, etc;
>> 7GB? That was a lot in 1992, when DLT-III was king, but now DLT IV
>> is ancient, and 7GB is -- bluntly -- chickenfeed.
>>
>
> Right. What about things of great sentimental value? E.g. family
> photos? What about financial records? Sure 7 GB is chickenfeed. It
> fits on one DVD. However, to put that on the shelf, what to use to make
> it last?

Chickenfeed is still important... to chickens.

So I wasn't trying to denigrate your 7GB of important data, but to
express that, in today's world, tape would be a radically cost-
inefficient means of storing only 7GB.

[snip]
>>
>> If a reputable archival company like Iron Mountain offers on-line
>> storage, then I'd encrypt it and drop it on their servers.
>
> So how do they store it? If they're just going to drop it onto a hard
> drive and forget about it, how is that different than me putting it on 2
> hard drives: one on a backup server that runs so that hard drive errors
> show up; one in an external case that gets a fresh backup put on it
> every month or so and goes to the bank's safety deposit box? Or, if
> they're just going to archive it in a tape library, how is that
> different than me putting it on a tape and putting that in the bank?

Nothing... except expertise. It's their *job* to monitor the SAN,
replacing failed disks, taking backups, etc.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

"I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian
because I hate vegetables!"
unknown
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=+8qV
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


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