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Old 01-04-2008, 05:24 PM
Paul Cartwright
 
Default tapes best for backup?

On Fri January 4 2008, Ron Johnson wrote:
> So I wasn't trying to denigrate your 7GB of important data, but to
> express that, in today's world, tape would be a radically cost-
> inefficient means of storing only 7GB.

so, what would be a good method..
say for instance MY system. my /home is 164 Gb, with 50 Gb free, so I've used
110 Gb. Right now I do the rsync to a 500Gb Mybook USB drive. But I don't
keep the drive connected, so I don't do it often enough..

--
Paul Cartwright
Registered Linux user # 367800
Registered Ubuntu User #12459


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Old 01-04-2008, 09:09 PM
Ron Johnson
 
Default tapes best for backup?

On 01/04/08 12:24, Paul Cartwright wrote:

On Fri January 4 2008, Ron Johnson wrote:

So I wasn't trying to denigrate your 7GB of important data, but to
express that, in today's world, tape would be a radically cost-
inefficient means of storing only 7GB.


so, what would be a good method..
say for instance MY system. my /home is 164 Gb, with 50 Gb free, so I've used
110 Gb. Right now I do the rsync to a 500Gb Mybook USB drive. But I don't
keep the drive connected, so I don't do it often enough..


Discipline.

It took a near disaster at our company for Upper Management to go
from "daily database backups are vital" being an easily-bypassed
slogan to actual etched-in-stone policy.


So, how much of that 114GB is Really Important, important enough to
spend regular time, effort & money to ensure it's survival?


--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

"I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian
because I hate vegetables!"
unknown


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Old 01-04-2008, 09:18 PM
David Dyer-Bennet
 
Default tapes best for backup?

Paul Cartwright wrote:

On Fri January 4 2008, Ron Johnson wrote:


So I wasn't trying to denigrate your 7GB of important data, but to
express that, in today's world, tape would be a radically cost-
inefficient means of storing only 7GB.



so, what would be a good method..
say for instance MY system. my /home is 164 Gb, with 50 Gb free, so I've used
110 Gb. Right now I do the rsync to a 500Gb Mybook USB drive. But I don't
keep the drive connected, so I don't do it often enough..



What I think of as "minimum acceptable" backup is two offline volumes to
accept backups, used alternately. Anything less leaves you with all
copies of your data online and vulnerable at once -- to a power surge,
lightning strike, malware, or idiot sysadmin ("rm -rf /").

I've got a nightly cron job that does the rsync; it looks for either of
the two volumes (mine are named "wrack" and "ruin") and uses whichever
is present, or if both are present has a day-based preference so it
would alternate if I just left them connected. I have to swap the
cords each day, to put the right one online before I go to bed. Yes,
that's not 100% reliable, but getting the reminder message in the
morning has helped me remember to do it. I'm going to make a little
sign that hangs on the spine of the MyBook (from the perforated top
plate) to indicate which one I used last, rather than depending on my
memory (though the scheme isn't totally ruined if I mess up the
alternation now and then).


Depending on what you use the system for, lower levels of backup can be
fine. If you know for sure the only significant work done, and remember
to do it, a manual backup whenever you did any significant work would be
enough. My server is storing files for the rest of the household too,
so I can't count on knowing, and just go ahead and do backups every day.


I'm using rsync to get the files from the server to the backup volume,
sounds like you made the same choice. Rsync is pretty cool for this.


You *could* use an X10 computer-controlled power controller and a couple
of appliance modules to put the power to the two external drives under
computer control. Or you could use an independent external timer (have
to have a 48-hour or better timer though to alternate days).


--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
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Old 01-04-2008, 11:28 PM
David Brodbeck
 
Default tapes best for backup?

On Jan 4, 2008, at 2:18 PM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
You *could* use an X10 computer-controlled power controller and a
couple of appliance modules to put the power to the two external
drives under computer control. Or you could use an independent
external timer (have to have a 48-hour or better timer though to
alternate days).


My experience with X10 gear suggests it's likely to be less reliable
than remembering to do it manually every morning.



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Old 01-05-2008, 01:10 AM
"s. keeling"
 
Default tapes best for backup?

Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net>:
>
> On 01/04/08 10:23, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> >
> > Right. What about things of great sentimental value? E.g. family
> > photos? What about financial records? Sure 7 GB is chickenfeed. It
>
> So I wasn't trying to denigrate your 7GB of important data, but to
> express that, in today's world, tape would be a radically cost-
> inefficient means of storing only 7GB.

... If starting from scratch, aka., "Where to go now from here?", as
in buying new hardware.

On the other hand, if you're sitting with a new/hand-me-down Sun U30
which came with a Sun DDS3 tape drive, 12 blank tapes, and head
cleaner tape, I think any comparable choice of backup medium would be
horrifically expensive in comparison to using what you've got. Sure,
only 12 Gb/tape, and it's no screamer but if that's all you want, it
works.

Floppies often became unreadable (when I still used them). I've never
run across a CD I couldn't still read, and I've a few old ones. DVD, I
would expect to be even better. For me, tape's good enough.


--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*) http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292
- - http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html Please, don't Cc: me.


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Old 01-05-2008, 01:21 AM
"Douglas A. Tutty"
 
Default tapes best for backup?

On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 12:04:05PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 01/04/08 10:23, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> > On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 09:56:19PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> >> On 01/03/08 20:30, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:

> > Right. What about things of great sentimental value? E.g. family
> > photos? What about financial records? Sure 7 GB is chickenfeed. It
> > fits on one DVD. However, to put that on the shelf, what to use to make
> > it last?
>
> Chickenfeed is still important... to chickens.
>
> So I wasn't trying to denigrate your 7GB of important data, but to
> express that, in today's world, tape would be a radically cost-
> inefficient means of storing only 7GB.
>
> [snip]
> >>
> >> If a reputable archival company like Iron Mountain offers on-line
> >> storage, then I'd encrypt it and drop it on their servers.
> >
> > So how do they store it? If they're just going to drop it onto a hard
> > drive and forget about it, how is that different than me putting it on 2
> > hard drives: one on a backup server that runs so that hard drive errors
> > show up; one in an external case that gets a fresh backup put on it
> > every month or so and goes to the bank's safety deposit box? Or, if
> > they're just going to archive it in a tape library, how is that
> > different than me putting it on a tape and putting that in the bank?
>
> Nothing... except expertise. It's their *job* to monitor the SAN,
> replacing failed disks, taking backups, etc.

So, ultimatly, for reliability, it ends up on tape. On-line storage
places amortize the cost of a tape drive over the number of people's
data it takes to fill a tape(s) (well, you get what I mean I hope).

So if one could get an older-model tape drive (say, some version of DLT),
tape remains the best for on-the-shelf off-line archival purposes?

Doug.


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Old 01-05-2008, 01:26 AM
"Douglas A. Tutty"
 
Default tapes best for backup?

On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 04:18:11PM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> Paul Cartwright wrote:
> >On Fri January 4 2008, Ron Johnson wrote:

> >so, what would be a good method..
> >say for instance MY system. my /home is 164 Gb, with 50 Gb free, so I've
> >used 110 Gb. Right now I do the rsync to a 500Gb Mybook USB drive. But I
> >don't keep the drive connected, so I don't do it often enough..
> >
>
> What I think of as "minimum acceptable" backup is two offline volumes to
> accept backups, used alternately. Anything less leaves you with all
> copies of your data online and vulnerable at once -- to a power surge,
> lightning strike, malware, or idiot sysadmin ("rm -rf /").
>

Right, but this is on-line (or near-line) backup. The data on the media
doesn't have to last long, only between backup cycles. What about
archives? Or, do you just keep everything on-line (buy more disks for
the computer and bigger USB drives for backups) and do backups and never
archive anything?

Doug.


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Old 01-05-2008, 01:30 AM
"Douglas A. Tutty"
 
Default tapes best for backup?

On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 09:12:19AM -0800, David Brodbeck wrote:
> On Jan 4, 2008, at 7:38 AM, Larry Irwin wrote:

> I would not buy a used tape drive. They're finicky mechanical devices
> and you really want a warranty. Every time I've bought a used tape
> drive thinking I was getting a good deal it's died within a month.

Which puts DLTs out of reach for the home user. Which means that either
I archive to less reliable media (CD/DVD, hard disk) or keep everything
online and only do backups with no archives.

Glossary:
backup: copy everything from the main computer and leave all data on the
main computer.

archive: copy data important for long-term use (e.g. financial records,
family pictures or videos) and possibly remove them from the main
computer.

Doug.


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Old 01-05-2008, 02:16 AM
John Schmidt
 
Default tapes best for backup?

On Friday 04 January 2008, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 09:12:19AM -0800, David Brodbeck wrote:
> > On Jan 4, 2008, at 7:38 AM, Larry Irwin wrote:
> >
> > I would not buy a used tape drive. They're finicky mechanical devices
> > and you really want a warranty. Every time I've bought a used tape
> > drive thinking I was getting a good deal it's died within a month.
>
> Which puts DLTs out of reach for the home user. Which means that either
> I archive to less reliable media (CD/DVD, hard disk) or keep everything
> online and only do backups with no archives.
>
> Glossary:
> backup: copy everything from the main computer and leave all data on the
> main computer.
>
> archive: copy data important for long-term use (e.g. financial records,
> family pictures or videos) and possibly remove them from the main
> computer.
>
> Doug.

Doug,

Have you considered an online storage site such as rsync.net? Given that you
are connecting to the internet via dial-up, this option may not be viable.

John


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Old 01-05-2008, 02:35 AM
Ron Johnson
 
Default tapes best for backup?

On 01/04/08 20:26, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:

On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 04:18:11PM -0600, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:

Paul Cartwright wrote:

On Fri January 4 2008, Ron Johnson wrote:



so, what would be a good method..
say for instance MY system. my /home is 164 Gb, with 50 Gb free, so I've
used 110 Gb. Right now I do the rsync to a 500Gb Mybook USB drive. But I
don't keep the drive connected, so I don't do it often enough..

What I think of as "minimum acceptable" backup is two offline volumes to
accept backups, used alternately. Anything less leaves you with all
copies of your data online and vulnerable at once -- to a power surge,
lightning strike, malware, or idiot sysadmin ("rm -rf /").



Right, but this is on-line (or near-line) backup. The data on the media
doesn't have to last long, only between backup cycles. What about
archives? Or, do you just keep everything on-line (buy more disks for
the computer and bigger USB drives for backups) and do backups and never
archive anything?


With $100 500GB hard drives and $20 eSATA enclosures, why "archive"?

Have a 2 drive rotation and bring the "A" drive to your Mom's house
when you visit for Sunday dinner, returning with the "B" drives, and
vice versa the next week.


When one of them starts to get flaky, toss it and put a new drive in
the enclosure.


--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

"I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian
because I hate vegetables!"
unknown


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