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Old 03-11-2009, 05:48 AM
Steven Demetrius
 
Default Top posting vs Bottom posting

For all you posters discussing Top posting vs Bottom posting and taking
other threads off topic here is a thread for you.

First my opinion, Since this mailing list historically has been Bottom
posting then we stick with it.

Using both top and bottom posting in the mailing list will lead to
inconsistency and confusion especially to for new users.

I've also seen posts about not being able to bottom post because of MS
Outlook. Last time I checked MS Outlook was not available in Debian, not
even any other Linux distribution. By the way MS Outlook does and cut
and paste features.

Now the fun begins.....

Steven.


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Old 03-11-2009, 06:23 AM
randall
 
Default Top posting vs Bottom posting

Steven Demetrius wrote:

For all you posters discussing Top posting vs Bottom posting and taking
other threads off topic here is a thread for you.

First my opinion, Since this mailing list historically has been Bottom
posting then we stick with it.


good point.
personally the most e-mails i receive and sent are in a "corporate"
environment and everybody uses top posting there, i clearly see it has
benefits since it is used more as a "notification" to have the latest
one (and probably most relevant) on top and thus it works fine.
also noticed that you can easily read the chain of command of an
organization by seeing who starts the mails and who has the final reply.


on mailing lists however mails are used as a discussion between peers
with many inns and outs instead of a notification, and then the latest
reply is not always the most relevant.




Using both top and bottom posting in the mailing list will lead to
inconsistency and confusion especially to for new users.

agreed, just choose one and get over it, but as far as i know this
choice has been made long time ago.

I've also seen posts about not being able to bottom post because of MS
Outlook. Last time I checked MS Outlook was not available in Debian, not
even any other Linux distribution. By the way MS Outlook does and cut
and paste features.


then don't use MS Outlook, any other mailer can do this.



Now the fun begins.....

Steven.






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Old 03-11-2009, 09:31 AM
Nuno Magalhães
 
Default Top posting vs Bottom posting

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 07:23, randall <randall@songshu.org> wrote:

> personally the most e-mails i receive and sent are in a "corporate"
> environment and everybody uses top posting there, i clearly see it has
> benefits since it is used more as a "notification" to have the latest one
> (and probably most relevant) on top and thus it works fine.
> also noticed that you can easily read the chain of command of an
> organization by seeing who starts the mails and who has the final reply.

I think most people top post in corporate enviroments 'cos they just
click and type and don't really care about proper use of email or
computers in general. It's just the thing to send messages. Ever seen
IT Crew? As for the chain of comand you could use the quotation
header's timestamp, but i don't see your corporate average Joe doing
that.

>> I've also seen posts about not being able to bottom post because of MS
>> Outlook. Last time I checked MS Outlook was not available in Debian, not
>> even any other Linux distribution. By the way MS Outlook does and cut
>> and paste features.

C'mon, if you're not using your home computer you might not be using
GNU/Linux (sad but true). Last i heard™ email is based on STMP and
others, not on Linux

Nuno Magalhães
LU#484677


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Old 03-11-2009, 10:18 AM
Sander Marechal
 
Default Top posting vs Bottom posting

Nuno Magalhes wrote:
> I think most people top post in corporate enviroments 'cos they just
> click and type and don't really care about proper use of email or
> computers in general. It's just the thing to send messages.

Actually, top posting makes some sense in a corporate environment. There
is no mailinglist or archive to see the entire discussion there. Suppose
you are discussing something with a coworker over e-mail. With top
posting every reply carries the entire thread. Want to involve someone
else (like your boss)? Just CC them and the have the full conversation.
This benefit probably outweighs the disadvantage of the messages
appearing in the wrong order.

For a real mailinglist (such as this) there is no such benefit when top
posting. Everyone already has all the previous messages because they are
subscribed here, and in the rare case you want to involve someone who is
not subscribed yet then you can point them to the public archive. In
this case top posting onmly has downsides and no benefit.

Of course, the *real* solution would be to start using mailinglists
inside corporate environments as well ;-)

--
Sander Marechal


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Old 03-11-2009, 10:51 AM
Jens Van Broeckhoven
 
Default Top posting vs Bottom posting

Sander Marechal wrote:

Nuno Magalhes wrote:


I think most people top post in corporate enviroments 'cos they just
click and type and don't really care about proper use of email or
computers in general. It's just the thing to send messages.



Actually, top posting makes some sense in a corporate environment. There
is no mailinglist or archive to see the entire discussion there. Suppose
you are discussing something with a coworker over e-mail. With top
posting every reply carries the entire thread. Want to involve someone
else (like your boss)? Just CC them and the have the full conversation.
This benefit probably outweighs the disadvantage of the messages
appearing in the wrong order.

For a real mailinglist (such as this) there is no such benefit when top
posting. Everyone already has all the previous messages because they are
subscribed here, and in the rare case you want to involve someone who is
not subscribed yet then you can point them to the public archive. In
this case top posting onmly has downsides and no benefit.

Of course, the *real* solution would be to start using mailinglists
inside corporate environments as well ;-)



...when is a mail part of a mailinglist?
Top-quoting is plain offensive if everyone else does the opposite.

I'm posting this froma GUI client (mozilla) to see if it's really that
different.


Jens.


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Old 03-11-2009, 10:59 AM
Stephan Seitz
 
Default Top posting vs Bottom posting

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:18:52PM +0100, Sander Marechal wrote:

Actually, top posting makes some sense in a corporate environment. There


Not really.


is no mailinglist or archive to see the entire discussion there. Suppose
you are discussing something with a coworker over e-mail. With top
posting every reply carries the entire thread. Want to involve someone
else (like your boss)? Just CC them and the have the full conversation.
This benefit probably outweighs the disadvantage of the messages
appearing in the wrong order.


And for this probability your wasting bandwidth, CPU time and disk space?
Maybe your coworker is connected via mobile phone?
And just CCing the mail with all the previous mails is not a good thing
either. You may not have the permission to do so, because the mail was
sent to the given recipients not anyone else. But no top poster will
check all the included old mails, if the content is meant for the new
recipient.


If you want to include new recipients, write a summary and if you have
the permissions attach necessary mails. There are even mime types for
such cases.


Most people seem to forget that it is not the job of the recipient to
search for some kind of information in a big mail beeing not even in
normal reading order. It is the job of the sender. If he is not
interested in writing proper mails, then why should the recipient care?


And in my experience the probability, that top poster forget to answer
some of your questions or that you don’t know to which question the
answer belongs, is much higher.


Shade and sweet water!

Stephan

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Old 03-11-2009, 11:03 AM
Jens Van Broeckhoven
 
Default Top posting vs Bottom posting

Jens Van Broeckhoven wrote:

Sander Marechal wrote:

Nuno Magalhes wrote:


I think most people top post in corporate enviroments 'cos they just
click and type and don't really care about proper use of email or
computers in general. It's just the thing to send messages.



Actually, top posting makes some sense in a corporate environment. There
is no mailinglist or archive to see the entire discussion there. Suppose
you are discussing something with a coworker over e-mail. With top
posting every reply carries the entire thread. Want to involve someone
else (like your boss)? Just CC them and the have the full conversation.
This benefit probably outweighs the disadvantage of the messages
appearing in the wrong order.

For a real mailinglist (such as this) there is no such benefit when top
posting. Everyone already has all the previous messages because they are
subscribed here, and in the rare case you want to involve someone who is
not subscribed yet then you can point them to the public archive. In
this case top posting onmly has downsides and no benefit.

Of course, the *real* solution would be to start using mailinglists
inside corporate environments as well ;-)



...when is a mail part of a mailinglist?
Top-quoting is plain offensive if everyone else does the opposite.

I'm posting this froma GUI client (mozilla) to see if it's really that
different.


Jens.



answer: it isn't.

--
.'`. Jens Van Broeckhoven
: :' : Debian GNU/Linux http://www.debian.org/
`. `' Free Software Foundation http://www.fsf.org/

`- Top-post-whole-quote-syndrome is evil!


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Old 03-11-2009, 01:11 PM
Daniel Burrows
 
Default Top posting vs Bottom posting

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 10:31:39AM +0000, Nuno Magalhes <nunomagalhaes@eu.ipp.pt> was heard to say:
> I think most people top post in corporate enviroments 'cos they just
> click and type and don't really care about proper use of email or
> computers in general. It's just the thing to send messages. Ever seen
> IT Crew? As for the chain of comand you could use the quotation
> header's timestamp, but i don't see your corporate average Joe doing
> that.

My experience has also been that attempting to bottom-post in a
corporate environment confuses people because they can't find your
reply. When people know the conventions, bottom-posting is a lot
clearer, but if it just confuses them, there's not much point.

Daniel


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Old 03-11-2009, 07:14 PM
Bryan Bishop
 
Default Top posting vs Bottom posting

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 1:48 AM, Steven Demetrius wrote:
> For all you posters discussing Top posting vs Bottom posting and taking
> other threads off topic here is a thread for you.

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 7:17 PM, Stephen D. Barnes wrote:
> Alan B. Pearce wrote:
>>> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 5:56 AM, Tamas Rudnai wrote:
>>>> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 5:59 AM, M. Adam Davis wrote:
>>>>> No * * * * * * Vitaliy wrote:
>>>>> lAoNvDe W H A T A B O U T M I X>E DWoPuOtSeTrE RvSa?n Ooijen wrote:
>>>>> for * * * * * * *>> Top and bottom posters: unite, and rally
>>>>> side * * * * * *>> to battle against the non-trimmers!
>>>>> posters? * * >
>>>>> :,-( * * * * * * > Our cause is just, we shall prevail!
>>>>>
>>> ɯɐpɐ-
>>>
>>> ¡dn sɯoʇʇoq
>>>
>>> ˙(ʇıuɐɔ) ƃuıɯɯıɹʇ ǝʇɐnbǝpɐuı ʎllɐuıɯou ʇsuıɐƃɐ uoıʇılɐoɔ ǝɥʇ ʇɹoddns
>>> sɹǝʇsod dn ɯoʇʇoq ǝɥʇ 'ǝɹɐ ǝʍ sɐ pǝʇuǝsǝɹdǝɹɹǝpun sɐ
>>>
>>> (CANIT - Coalition Against Nominally Inadequate Trimming)
>>>
>>
>> Will you please stop posting from Down Under .... )))))))))))
>>
>>
> * W
> f * h
> *r * a
> *o * t
> * m
> * * * *a
> * * o * b
> * * *v * o
> * * * e * u
> * * * *r * t
>
> * * * * *h
> * * * * * e
> * * * * * *r
> * * * * * * e
> * * * * * * *?

Maybe it's time I start having a standard link to a standard argument
about top vs. bottom vs. side vs. diagonal vs. mixed posting.

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507
 
Old 03-11-2009, 11:48 PM
Alex Samad
 
Default Top posting vs Bottom posting

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 12:18:52PM +0100, Sander Marechal wrote:
> Nuno Magalhes wrote:

[snip]

>
> For a real mailinglist (such as this) there is no such benefit when top
> posting. Everyone already has all the previous messages because they are
> subscribed here, and in the rare case you want to involve someone who is

isn't that a reason for top posting, if you have already read the
previous emails, don't you want to just get to the new information with
out having to read the stuff you just read in the previous email ?

> not subscribed yet then you can point them to the public archive. In
> this case top posting onmly has downsides and no benefit.
>

[snip]

> --
> Sander Marechal
>
>
> --
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
>
>

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