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Old 02-06-2009, 09:52 PM
Michael Pobega
 
Default Which programming Language

On Fri, Feb 06, 2009 at 10:39:58PM +0000, Michal R. Hoffmann wrote:
> On 06/02/09 21:40, jatos.software@gmail.com wrote:
>> I have to say, if you want to get into programming seriously DO NOT
>> start with Python or BASIC. Why? Because their syntax is very
>> different to the languages (such as C) used for more mainstream
>> purposes. If start with Python or BASIC your going to have a much
>> harder time learning C, which is what most programs are written in.
>> Also things like Java and PHP use a syntax that's very C likeM
>>
>> So I very strongly advise, speaking as somebody who learn't BASIC and
>> regretted it frankly, don't learn BASIC unless that's all you intend
>> to ever use. C will, PHP or Java will be a lot better places to
>> start. C will be the most difficult but also the most useful.
>>
>> Jamie
>
> C# may be a good alternative. It's similar in many ways to C++, Java,
> Object Pascal (Delphi), rather strict, and quite portable.
>

I actually consider PHP to be a good starting point for programming;
it's easy to use, and easy to build a GUI around (HTML is exponentially
easier than GTK/Qt/Tk), teaches functional programming, and has C-styled
syntax.

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http://identica/pobega


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Old 02-06-2009, 09:58 PM
Mike Bird
 
Default Which programming Language

On Fri February 6 2009 14:52:06 Michael Pobega wrote:
> I actually consider PHP to be a good starting point for programming;
> it's easy to use, and easy to build a GUI around (HTML is exponentially
> easier than GTK/Qt/Tk), teaches functional programming, and has C-styled
> syntax.

PHP is perhaps the easiest way to build web interfaces. Unfortunately,
history teaches us that PHP is by far the easiest way to introduce
security holes into web servers.

--Mike Bird


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Old 02-06-2009, 10:03 PM
Robert Baron
 
Default Which programming Language

For what it is worth:

I would start by learning C.* Basically, C++, java, php, perl, python all share enough similarities that they are
rather easy to pick up (Yes I know php, perl and python have less in common which is why I put them later in the list).


Don't worry about if a language has strong or weak types.

The following tools I have found useful for 90% of what I have done professionally (sort of in the order that I have found
them useful):

C, SQL, vi, cvs, php, ksh, cron, perl


and for certain problems/situations

lisp, ml, prolog.

If you do start with C, I would consider the following books as a good starting point:
* * The C Programming Language, Kerrigan and Richie
* * Expert C Programming, Peter van der linden (?)


The best C++ programming book that I have read is The Design and Evolution of C++.* Unfortunately, I didn't
find The C++ Programming Language to be useful at all.

Just my 2 cents worth.


On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Abdelkader Belahcene <abelahcene@gmail.com> wrote:

HI,

There are many and many programming languages (mainly : C,C++,java,

Shell, Perl, python, php). which learn and use, in which circonstances

use that language instead of the other.



In many situations we can use anyone, but which is better.



thanks a lot

bela

______





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Old 02-06-2009, 10:52 PM
Dave Sherohman
 
Default Which programming Language

On Fri, Feb 06, 2009 at 05:52:06PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote:
> I actually consider PHP to be a good starting point for programming;
> it's easy to use, and easy to build a GUI around (HTML is exponentially
> easier than GTK/Qt/Tk), teaches functional programming, and has C-styled
> syntax.

Unfortunately, PHP is not merely a very easy language to pick up bad
habits in, the language's design practically encourages them.
Specifically, the core of PHP is code embedded in HTML pages - also
known as mixing logic with presentation.

There definitely are techniques and frameworks available in PHP which do
properly separate presentation from logic but using them takes away much
of the "do something in five minutes" aspect that appears to be behind
your recommendation. They're also generally considered to be more
"advanced" and omitted from beginning materials.

Much better to start with something more strict and learn good habits
first, then apply them to languages which are more permissive, rather
than picking up bad habits from the start.

--
Dave Sherohman
NomadNet, Inc.
http://nomadnetinc.com/


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Old 02-06-2009, 10:56 PM
Dave Sherohman
 
Default Which programming Language

On Fri, Feb 06, 2009 at 11:49:41PM +0200, Micha Feigin wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Feb 2009 22:10:40 +0200
> "Eugene V. Lyubimkin" <jackyf.devel@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Don't include Perl here, it has much different concepts than C/C++/Java.

Perl is a multi-paradigm language. It can be written in a very C-like
fashion if you so choose. (Or in a completely non-C-like fashion...)

> And allows for some of the dirtiest programming possible. Start with something
> more strict

Or just start your Perl with "use strict;" (and, preferably, "use
warnings;", too). The "strict" and "warnings" options are two things
that no beginner (and few non-beginners) should write Perl without, IMO.

--
Dave Sherohman
NomadNet, Inc.
http://nomadnetinc.com/


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Old 02-06-2009, 11:18 PM
 
Default Which programming Language

True, I can see your point there.

I would say, I am in the habit myself of making MVC styled php code. However, I also think for a beginner, it would help because learning is as I say much easier.

That said, I think would wise for our first time coder to get to know some more experienced developers who can slowly amongst other things good habit, i don't see any first time dev starting with good habits without assistance.
Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Sherohman <dave@sherohman.org>

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 17:52:35
To: <debian-user@lists.debian.org>
Subject: Re: Which programming Language


On Fri, Feb 06, 2009 at 05:52:06PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote:
> I actually consider PHP to be a good starting point for programming;
> it's easy to use, and easy to build a GUI around (HTML is exponentially
> easier than GTK/Qt/Tk), teaches functional programming, and has C-styled
> syntax.

Unfortunately, PHP is not merely a very easy language to pick up bad
habits in, the language's design practically encourages them.
Specifically, the core of PHP is code embedded in HTML pages - also
known as mixing logic with presentation.

There definitely are techniques and frameworks available in PHP which do
properly separate presentation from logic but using them takes away much
of the "do something in five minutes" aspect that appears to be behind
your recommendation. They're also generally considered to be more
"advanced" and omitted from beginning materials.

Much better to start with something more strict and learn good habits
first, then apply them to languages which are more permissive, rather
than picking up bad habits from the start.

--
Dave Sherohman
NomadNet, Inc.
http://nomadnetinc.com/


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Old 02-07-2009, 12:14 AM
 
Default Which programming Language

>
>
>
>---- Original Message ----
>From: javuchi@gmail.com
>To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>Subject: Re: Which programming Language
>Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 21:47:02 +0100
>
>>Jeff Soules escribió:
>>>> So start with Python or Basic (search for Gambas IDE).
>>>
>>> I hear that Python is an excellent learning language. However, I
>>> think that Basic might be less useful for this, simply because
>it's
>>> very different from the major language families and (last I heard)
>>> still relied on some features that teach bad habits. Also, I do
>not
>>> believe Basic is used very much in the Unix/Linux world; it might
>be
>>> more useful if you intend to work with Windows a lot.
>>
>>Well, Gambas is a very good Basic environment for learning, and it
>is
>>included in Debian (just go to Synaptic and download it).
>>My point is not that he should not learn C... I think he must learn
>C if
>>we want to program seriusly. My point is that Python and Basic
>should be
>>very good for getting started. Then, jumping to C would be much
>easier
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> If you are comfortable with how the insides of a computer work
>(mainly
>>> with memory), then actually I would encourage you to learn C early
>on.
>>> (If you are not comfortable with how the insides of a computer
>work,
>>> you should become comfortable; you'll need to know soon enough.)
>>>
>>> C has a few features (variable and function declarations, strict
>type
>>> checking) that are good reinforcement when starting out, and
>learning
>>> C syntax will set you up well to learn C++, Java, and Perl as you
>>> progress.
>>>
I think you will find that virtually all Engineering Schools teach C
and assembler. The Computer Science People are more into Java and C++
Larry
>>
>>
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>ebian.org
>>
>>
>>




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Old 02-07-2009, 01:12 AM
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr."
 
Default Which programming Language

On Friday 06 February 2009 11:25:31 Abdelkader Belahcene wrote:
> There are many and many programming languages (mainly : C,C++,java,
> Shell, Perl, python, php). which learn and use, in which circonstances
> use that language instead of the other.
>
> In many situations we can use anyone, but which is better.

It depends on the task. I tend to favor C, but if there's a library that
saves me work and it's written in C++/Perl/Ruby I'll use that. I avoid PHP
because I've been bitten by its brain damage. I usually only write shell as
the first "prototype" or for tasks I'm already doing manually.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =.
bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/
 
Old 02-07-2009, 01:45 AM
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr."
 
Default Which programming Language

On Friday 06 February 2009 16:46:13 Nuno Magalhães wrote:
> The fact that it was developed by MS kinda creeps be but it has been
> standardized...

I understand the distrust of MS, but C# is actually a pretty nice language, at
least on par with Java.

> Is it "backward-compatible" with C++?

No.

> Would you use it
> for cross-platform programming?

C# only compiles to one platform: CLR (Common Language Runtime). There are
implementations of the CLR on a number of platforms, though.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =.
bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/
 
Old 02-07-2009, 03:29 AM
Napoleon
 
Default Which programming Language

Abdelkader Belahcene wrote:

HI,
There are many and many programming languages (mainly : C,C++,java,
Shell, Perl, python, php). which learn and use, in which circonstances
use that language instead of the other.

In many situations we can use anyone, but which is better.

thanks a lot
bela
______




For learning a first language, I would highly recommend PASCAL. It puts
you in a straight jacket - but it also forces you to learn good
programming techniques. For OO programming, SmallTalk or Java.

Most of the other languages mentioned here such make it easy for you to
pick up bad habits unless you are working with experienced programmers
who can point out the bad habits.


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