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Old 01-25-2009, 11:48 AM
David Purton
 
Default help with mlterm

Hi all,

I'm trying to get mlterm to work in the way I want for a mixed Hebrew
and English environment.

These are the things that annoy me in no particular order:

- Is it possible to completely disable bold fonts like in
gnome-terminal? I am using anti aliased fonts and have fiddled
endlessly with settings in ~/.mlterm/aafonts, but without success.

- I would prefer to use SBL Hebrew as my font and put mlterm in variable
width mode, but the vowel pointings seem to be shifted to the left.

- A line starts in right or left mode based on the first character. Is
there anyway to control this? My application should always work left
to right and just insert Hebrew in right to left mode, but sometimes
the lines start with Hebrew.

Can anyone suggest solutions to these?

cheers

dc

--
David Purton
dcpurton@marshwiggle.net

For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to
strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him.
2 Chronicles 16:9a
 
Old 01-25-2009, 01:24 PM
Tzafrir Cohen
 
Default help with mlterm

On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 11:18:19PM +1030, David Purton wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm trying to get mlterm to work in the way I want for a mixed Hebrew
> and English environment.
>
> These are the things that annoy me in no particular order:
>
> - Is it possible to completely disable bold fonts like in
> gnome-terminal? I am using anti aliased fonts and have fiddled
> endlessly with settings in ~/.mlterm/aafonts, but without success.

Err... why would you want to disable it?

>
> - I would prefer to use SBL Hebrew as my font and put mlterm in variable
> width mode, but the vowel pointings seem to be shifted to the left.

Variable width fonts in the terminal? Doesn't sound promising.

>
> - A line starts in right or left mode based on the first

"strong" (e.g.: one with a clear directionality)

> character. Is
> there anyway to control this? My application should always work left
> to right and just insert Hebrew in right to left mode, but sometimes
> the lines start with Hebrew.

What applications do you use?

I suppose it would not be difficult to add it as an extra control. I'm
just not sure how actually usable it will be.

--
Tzafrir Cohen | tzafrir@jabber.org | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il | | a Mutt's
tzafrir@cohens.org.il | | best
ICQ# 16849754 | | friend


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Old 01-25-2009, 05:55 PM
Mitchell Laks
 
Default help with mlterm

On 23:18 Sun 25 Jan , David Purton wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm trying to get mlterm to work in the way I want for a mixed Hebrew
> and English environment.

I am interested in using hebrew as well. You seem much more advanced than I, can I ask you some questions?

I am still at a beginning level. I have difficulty using my usual tools.
I use emacs usually. Unfortunately
emacs only shows me 'square boxes' when i open a file with hebrew in it.
If however i do
emacs -nw hebrew-file
then it will open with hebrew text displayed (backwards ).

if i open emacs -fn heb10x20 hebrew-file i get
No fonts match `heb10x20'
emacs -fn heb8x13 hebrew-file

it will display hebrew text (backwards of course) and not right justified like in gedit and kedit.

I have been using gedit and kedit which seem to work, but they are not my choice editors...

I see that you advocate xetex.

Can you describe what you do to set your favorite hebrew writing environment?

I see that Tzafrir likes vim. What do you think?

Any good hints on using xetex?

How do you do vowels?

thanks,

Mitchell






>
> These are the things that annoy me in no particular order:
>
> - Is it possible to completely disable bold fonts like in
> gnome-terminal? I am using anti aliased fonts and have fiddled
> endlessly with settings in ~/.mlterm/aafonts, but without success.
>
> - I would prefer to use SBL Hebrew as my font and put mlterm in variable
> width mode, but the vowel pointings seem to be shifted to the left.
>
> - A line starts in right or left mode based on the first character. Is
> there anyway to control this? My application should always work left
> to right and just insert Hebrew in right to left mode, but sometimes
> the lines start with Hebrew.
>
> Can anyone suggest solutions to these?
>
> cheers
>
> dc
>
> --
> David Purton
> dcpurton@marshwiggle.net
>
> For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to
> strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him.
> 2 Chronicles 16:9a



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Old 01-25-2009, 11:26 PM
David Purton
 
Default help with mlterm

Hi Tzafrir,

Thaks for your quick reply.

On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 02:24:20PM +0000, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 11:18:19PM +1030, David Purton wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm trying to get mlterm to work in the way I want for a mixed Hebrew
> > and English environment.
> >
> > These are the things that annoy me in no particular order:
> >
> > - Is it possible to completely disable bold fonts like in
> > gnome-terminal? I am using anti aliased fonts and have fiddled
> > endlessly with settings in ~/.mlterm/aafonts, but without success.
>
> Err... why would you want to disable it?

Becuase complex charaters become hard to read, especially at small point
sizes. Bold is set to be a different colour, I don't need a different
typeface as well. Many terminals have the option to disable bold fonts -
it's just a preference thing. It's esp odd since I can specify a
completely different type face for bold fonts in mlterm using aafont,
but it still chooses the bold variant of that family no matter what!

I wondered whether it might be possible to control this using fontconfig,
since I found out that bold will even be faked at this point if that is
enabled in fontconfig. Trouble is, that I only want to do this for one
application - otherwise I might as well just remove the font file from
the disk...

> > - I would prefer to use SBL Hebrew as my font and put mlterm in variable
> > width mode, but the vowel pointings seem to be shifted to the left.
>
> Variable width fonts in the terminal? Doesn't sound promising.

no, it's not ideal, but it actually works ok with mlterm (surprisingly).
Of course it's not going to be good for anything curses based!

What terminal font would you recommend for Hebrew? All the ones I have
tried look ugly as and the vowels only combine in a fairly simplistic
way, making it harder to read. (esp this is a problem for me since I
know zero about Hebrew - my course, starts next week...) The SBL Hebrew
font works perfectly in openoffice, so I wondered how it would go in
the terminal. I've settled on Courier New, but it's far from perfect.

> >
> > - A line starts in right or left mode based on the first
>
> "strong" (e.g.: one with a clear directionality)

yeah - that sounds right.

> > character. Is
> > there anyway to control this? My application should always work left
> > to right and just insert Hebrew in right to left mode, but sometimes
> > the lines start with Hebrew.
>
> What applications do you use?

well - in fact I care about my editor (vim) and a program I have written
to help me learn vocab.

both suffer from this problem, but I can fudge my program, since I am
the only one who uses it.

as an examle, my vocab program takes a vocab file something like this:

actual file is (excluding pointing to keep things simple):

2,"<alef><dalet><final mem>","man, humankind, Adam",n,m

file should be displayed like (starting at left):

2,"<final mem><dalet><alef>","man, humankind, Adam",n,m

file is actually displayed like (starting at right):

man, humankind, Adam",n,m","<final mem><dalet><alef>",2

now obviously, both are correct, it just depends on which language is
considered primary. But the second one looks wrong, because the quote
marks around the english translation are mismatched.

Does that make sense?

> I suppose it would not be difficult to add it as an extra control. I'm
> just not sure how actually usable it will be.

How would you control it? It doesn't seem like a really easy thing to
solve unless you pass a command line arg to mlterm saying "always start
lines at the left no matter what you think"


cheers

dc

--
David Purton
dcpurton@marshwiggle.net

For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to
strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him.
2 Chronicles 16:9a
 
Old 01-25-2009, 11:53 PM
David Purton
 
Default help with mlterm

Hi Mitchell,

On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 01:55:52PM -0500, Mitchell Laks wrote:
> On 23:18 Sun 25 Jan , David Purton wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm trying to get mlterm to work in the way I want for a mixed Hebrew
> > and English environment.
>
> I am interested in using hebrew as well. You seem much more advanced
> than I, can I ask you some questions?

Hehe, this is a complete illusion. My biblical Hebrew course starts
next week... I'm just trying to get stuff sorted out before the three
week intensive part of course starts, so that I can spend three weeks
learning Hebrew instead of three weeks playing with my computer....

> I am still at a beginning level. I have difficulty using my usual tools.
> I use emacs usually. Unfortunately
> emacs only shows me 'square boxes' when i open a file with hebrew in it.

I don't use emacs, but this sounds font related. I don't know enough
about how emacs works with fonts to give sensible answers here.
Presumably it does not substitute fonts like gvim/gedit do.

> If however i do
> emacs -nw hebrew-file
> then it will open with hebrew text displayed (backwards ).

In mlterm? Try again in mlterm and see if that helps. Vim is pretty
usable in this way.

> if i open emacs -fn heb10x20 hebrew-file i get
> No fonts match `heb10x20'
> emacs -fn heb8x13 hebrew-file
>
> it will display hebrew text (backwards of course) and not right
> justified like in gedit and kedit.
>
> I have been using gedit and kedit which seem to work, but they are not
> my choice editors...
>
> I see that you advocate xetex.

Only becaue ordinary tex can't cope with the combining characters
required for pointed Hebrew. Plus it's easier to choose fonts you want
for different scripts.

> Can you describe what you do to set your favorite hebrew writing environment?
>
> I see that Tzafrir likes vim. What do you think?

This is what I'm trying to figure out.
vim is my editor of preference, but it has some short comings, I think.

It's not so bad for me, since I really will only need to insert the
occasional hebrew word in my essays, rather than write paragraph text.

If you run vim in an mlterm console, it behaves the same as gedit. See
my other reply for my trouble with this.

It is likely I will use gvim, and just live with hebrew being displayed
left-to-right, since I will only need to put a few words in - then TeX
can do the work in displaying it right-to-left

> Any good hints on using xetex?

I have not used it much yet, but it is very simple to get it working.
Presumably you found the LaTeX page on my website, at the top of the
main class file, there are a few lines of setup stuff for XeLaTeX - and
that's all it takes. The XeTeX website has some stuff to get you started
as well.

> How do you do vowels?

I use gnome and just added a biblical Hebrew Tiro keymap. Then vowels
are just added to the previous character.

I found this keyboard map file:

http://www.sbl-site.org/Fonts/BiblicalHebrewTiroManual.pdf

which tells me what key to press...


cheers

dc

--
David Purton
dcpurton@marshwiggle.net

For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to
strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him.
2 Chronicles 16:9a
 
Old 01-26-2009, 12:13 AM
Ron Johnson
 
Default help with mlterm

On 01/25/2009 06:26 PM, David Purton wrote:
[snip]


well - in fact I care about my editor (vim) and a program I have written
to help me learn vocab.


Maybe gvim would give you better results?

--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

"I am not surprised, for we live long and are celebrated poopers."


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Old 01-26-2009, 01:34 AM
David Purton
 
Default help with mlterm

On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 07:13:56PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 01/25/2009 06:26 PM, David Purton wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>> well - in fact I care about my editor (vim) and a program I have written
>> to help me learn vocab.
>
> Maybe gvim would give you better results?

As far as I can tell, gvim does not really have bidirectional support.
You can put the whole thing in RTL mode, but it does not automatically
switch between the two directios depending on the script like gedit or
mlterm do.

Correct me if I'm wrong, though. gvim is my first choice for an editor.

cheers

dc

--
David Purton
dcpurton@marshwiggle.net

For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to
strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him.
2 Chronicles 16:9a
 
Old 01-26-2009, 02:29 AM
David Purton
 
Default help with mlterm

On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 11:18:19PM +1030, David Purton wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm trying to get mlterm to work in the way I want for a mixed Hebrew
> and English environment.
>
> These are the things that annoy me in no particular order:

on more thing:

- the hidden escape sequence ( ^[[8m ) does not seem to do anything

> Can anyone suggest solutions to these?
>
> cheers
>
> dc
>



--
David Purton
dcpurton@marshwiggle.net

For the eyes of the LORD range throughout the earth to
strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him.
2 Chronicles 16:9a
 
Old 01-27-2009, 01:49 PM
Thomas Dickey
 
Default help with mlterm

On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 01:30:07AM +0100, David Purton wrote:
> Becuase complex charaters become hard to read, especially at small point
> sizes. Bold is set to be a different colour, I don't need a different
> typeface as well. Many terminals have the option to disable bold fonts -
> it's just a preference thing. It's esp odd since I can specify a
> completely different type face for bold fonts in mlterm using aafont,
> but it still chooses the bold variant of that family no matter what!

You might be able to make it use a terminal description that pretends to
not support bold font (though there are always things like "ls" which
ignore termcap/terminfo).

--
Thomas E. Dickey
http://invisible-island.net
ftp://invisible-island.net
 

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