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Old 01-16-2009, 08:14 PM
Andrei Popescu
 
Default k3b & brasero don't work, nerolinux does- works ar 2X

On Sat,10.Jan.09, 12:30:07, Tzafrir Cohen wrote:

> > Still, I have no doubt reportbug could be improved.
>
> http://packages.debian.org/reportbug-ng

Careful, several Debian Developers have complained about it, including
the Release Team:

http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/serendipity/index.php?/archives/119-reportbug-ng-unfit-for-purpose-Absolutely..html

Regards,
Andrei
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
(Albert Einstein)
 
Old 01-17-2009, 11:03 AM
Chris Bannister
 
Default k3b & brasero don't work, nerolinux does- works ar 2X

On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 04:31:47PM +0100, Winfried Tilanus wrote:
> On 01/16/2009 Joerg Schilling wrote:
>
>
> > Debian however is definitively in conflict with the Copyright law....
>
> Jörg, this is a severe accusation. If it is true, then it calls for
> immediate action. So I ask you once again: please give us all juridical
> details, so we can judge the validity of this accusation ourselves and
> make work of stopping this violation.

Maybe Jörg could comment on the below article:

http://lwn.net/Articles/198171/

--
Chris.
======
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god
than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other
possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
-- Stephen F Roberts


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Old 01-17-2009, 10:23 PM
 
Default k3b & brasero don't work, nerolinux does- works ar 2X

Chris Bannister <mockingbird@earthlight.co.nz> wrote:

> Maybe Jörg could comment on the below article:
>
> http://lwn.net/Articles/198171/

Let me answer as quick as your question was:

Everything starting with the word "Unfortunately" in this article is plain FUD.

Jörg

--
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily


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Old 01-18-2009, 06:53 AM
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr."
 
Default k3b & brasero don't work, nerolinux does- works ar 2X

On Saturday 17 January 2009, Joerg Schilling
<Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> wrote about 'Re: k3b & brasero don't
work, nerolinux does- works ar 2X':
>Chris Bannister <mockingbird@earthlight.co.nz> wrote:
>> http://lwn.net/Articles/198171/
>
>Everything starting with the word "Unfortunately" in this article is
> plain FUD.

Could please take it point by point? Here's my take:

"Unfortunately Sun then developed the CDDL[1] and Jörg Schilling
released parts of recent versions of cdrtools under this license."

True.

"The CDDL is incompatible with the GPL."

The FSF and Sun have said as much, but IANAL. From what I understand, Jörg
seems to believe this is not actually issue in the case. From what I
understand, his opinion is based on his beliefe that no GPL code is linked
to CDDL code in cdrtools.

"The FSF itself says that this
is the case as do people who helped draft the CDDL."

True.

"One current and
one former Sun employee visited the annual Debian conference in Mexico
in 2006."

True.

"Danese Cooper clearly stated there that the CDDL was
intentionally modelled on the MPL in order to make it GPL-
incompatible."

True.

"For everyone who wants to hear this first-hand, we have
video from that talk available at [2]."

True.

"You can read the FSF position about the CDDL at [3]."

True.

"The thread behind
[4] contains statements on the issue made by Debian people; for more
context also see the other mails in that thread."

True enough, though the value of message in that thread differs. I'll
refrain from reviewing the individual statements in that thread, though I
suggest other do if they want to hear more of Debian's side of the
arguments.

"In short - the CDDL has extra restrictions, which the GPL does not
allow."

True.

"Jörg has a different opinion about this and has repeatedly
stated that the CDDL is not incompatible, interpreting a facial
expression in the above-mentioned video, calling us liars and generally
appearing unwilling to consider our concerns (he never replied to the
parts where we explained why it is incompatible)."

As I understand it, it is largely not true. The post does not appear to
provide any references to support these statements. I beleive they can be
safely ignored. I would welcome any references confirming or refuting
these statements.

"As he has basically
ignored what we have said, we have no choice but to fork."

Not entirely true. Debian has two distinct choices to make: (A) (1)
distribute cdrtools or (2) not and (B) (1) distribute cdrtools-compatible
software not based on cdrtools, (2) distribute cdrtools-compatible
software based on cdrtools, or (3) not distribute cdrtools-compatible
software.

Debian chose A2+B2, believing A1 carried undue legal risk to the Debian
project, A2+B3 would be a disservice to Debian users, A2+B1 would be
slower than A2+B2, and A2+B2 was possible based on the license of earlier
versions of cdrtools.

I agree with Debian's decision and the thought process behind it. Jörg
believes A1 does not but Debian at legal risk, and that B1 and B2 actually
violate the GPL and "German Copyright Law" because of the necessary
symlinks required.

"While the CDDL
*may* be a free license, we never questioned if it is free or not, as it
is not our place to decide this as the Debian cdrtools
maintainers."

Not entirely true. It is the responsibility of everyone contributing to
the Debian project to ensure software distributed by Debian meets the DFSG
or at least is distributable by Debian. If a developer is considering
uploading a package, they are supposed to make sure it is in the right
section based on its license and it is distributable by Debian. The
ftp-masters share this role. Non-DD maintainers should also will this
role

"However, having been approved by OSI doesn't mean it's ok
for any usage, as Jörg unfortunately seems to assume."

I'm not sure if Jörg assumes that. However, it is very much true. Just
because OSI approves a license does not mean that the license is
DFSG-free. DSFG-freeness is the exclusive purview of the Debian project.

"There are several
OSI-approved licenses that are GPL-incompatible and CDDL is one of
them."

True.

"That is and always was our point."

I'll assume this is true.

"For our fork we used the last GPL-licensed version of the program code
and killed the incompatibly licensed build system."

True.

"It is now replaced by
a cmake system, and the whole source we distribute should be free of
other incompatibilities, as to the best of our current knowledge."

True.

"Anyone who wants to help with this fork, particularly developers of
other distributions, is welcome to join our efforts."

True

"You can contact us
on IRC, server irc.oftc.net, channel #debburn, or via mail at
debburn-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org. Our svn repository is
http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/debburn."

I believe the repository may have moved, but otherwise true.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =.
bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/

[1] http://www.opensource.org/licenses/cddl1.php
[2]
http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2006/debconf6/theora-small/2006-05-14/tower/OpenSolaris_Java_and_Debian-Simon_Phipps__Alvaro_Lopez_Ortega.ogg
[3] http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html
[4] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2006/08/msg00552.html
 
Old 01-18-2009, 10:06 AM
 
Default k3b & brasero don't work, nerolinux does- works ar 2X

"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss@iguanasuicide.net> wrote:

> On Saturday 17 January 2009, Joerg Schilling
> <Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> wrote about 'Re: k3b & brasero don't
> work, nerolinux does- works ar 2X':
> >Chris Bannister <mockingbird@earthlight.co.nz> wrote:
> >> http://lwn.net/Articles/198171/
> >
> >Everything starting with the word "Unfortunately" in this article is
> > plain FUD.
>
> Could please take it point by point? Here's my take:
>
> "Unfortunately Sun then developed the CDDL[1] and Jörg Schilling
> released parts of recent versions of cdrtools under this license."
>
> True.

Given the fact that attacking Sun (the largest donator of OpenSOurce software)
is definitely FUD, we can safely ignore your post.

Jörg

--
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily


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Old 01-18-2009, 01:06 PM
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr."
 
Default k3b & brasero don't work, nerolinux does- works ar 2X

On Sunday 18 January 2009, Joerg Schilling
<Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> wrote about 'Re: k3b & brasero don't
work, nerolinux does- works ar 2X':
>"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss@iguanasuicide.net> wrote:
>> On Saturday 17 January 2009, Joerg Schilling
>> <Joerg.Schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de> wrote about 'Re: k3b & brasero
>> don't
>> work, nerolinux does- works ar 2X':
>> >Chris Bannister <mockingbird@earthlight.co.nz> wrote:
>> >> http://lwn.net/Articles/198171/
>> >Everything starting with the word "Unfortunately" in this article is
>> > plain FUD.
>> Could please take it point by point? Here's my take:
>>
>> "Unfortunately Sun then developed the CDDL[1] and Jörg Schilling
>> released parts of recent versions of cdrtools under this license."
>>
>> True.
>Given the fact that attacking Sun (the largest donator of OpenSOurce
> software) is definitely FUD, we can safely ignore your post.

I not sure how you characterize this as "attacking Sun". Is it not true
that Sun released the CDDL? Is it not true that parts of cdrtools are
licensed under the CDDL? I agree that the the bias instilled by the
work "Unfortunately" is unfair, but I believe the statement is otherwise
factual. Sun is a large contributor of OSI-open, FSF-free, and DSFG-free
code; I do not mean to make false statements about their behavior.

Also, I think it is unfair to "ignore [my] post" since my remaining points
did not depend on this point. Can anyone that cares (or, perhaps, is
schooled in formal logic and needs some exercise) back me up on that
assertion?
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =.
bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/
 
Old 01-18-2009, 02:28 PM
Winfried Tilanus
 
Default k3b & brasero don't work, nerolinux does- works ar 2X

On 01/18/2009 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:

Hi,

> Can anyone that cares (or, perhaps, is
> schooled in formal logic and needs some exercise) back me up on that
> assertion?

Maybe it is time to stop discussing and look at this discussion from a
distance.

Jörg didn't produce solid evidence for two of his statements:
- CDDL is compatible with GPL and the DFSG.
- Debian is violating his rights on his intellectual property.
The only behaviour I see from Jörg right now, is repeating the
statements but ignoring requests to produce evidence, although he claims
he has the evidence.

It is very unfortunate he is not giving evidence for his statements: I
respect his contribution to the free software community very much, Jörg
has been an incredible pioneer. But IMHO his current behaviour makes him
loose his credibility very fast. It is painful to see such a respected
programmer getting more and more damaged by his own behaviour.

I wish I had the means to resolve this discussion once and for all,
there is already too much damage done. But I am just as empty-handed as
everybody else in this duscussion.

best wishes,

Winfried

--
http://www.tilanus.com
xmpp:winfried@jabber.xs4all.nl
tel. 015-3613996 / 06-23303960
fax. 015-3614406


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Old 01-18-2009, 03:05 PM
 
Default k3b & brasero don't work, nerolinux does- works ar 2X

>
>
>
>---- Original Message ----
>From: winfried@tilanus.com
>To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>Subject: Re: k3b & brasero don't work, nerolinux does- works ar 2X
>Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 16:28:50 +0100
>
>>On 01/18/2009 Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>> Can anyone that cares (or, perhaps, is
>>> schooled in formal logic and needs some exercise) back me up on
>that
>>> assertion?
>>
>>Maybe it is time to stop discussing and look at this discussion from
>a
>>distance.
>>
>>Jörg didn't produce solid evidence for two of his statements:
>>- CDDL is compatible with GPL and the DFSG.
>>- Debian is violating his rights on his intellectual property.
>>The only behaviour I see from Jörg right now, is repeating the
>>statements but ignoring requests to produce evidence, although he
>claims
>>he has the evidence.
>>
>>It is very unfortunate he is not giving evidence for his statements:
>I
>>respect his contribution to the free software community very much,
>Jörg
>>has been an incredible pioneer. But IMHO his current behaviour makes
>him
>>loose his credibility very fast. It is painful to see such a
>respected
>>programmer getting more and more damaged by his own behaviour.
>>
>>I wish I had the means to resolve this discussion once and for all,
>>there is already too much damage done. But I am just as empty-handed
>as
>>everybody else in this duscussion.
>>
>>best wishes,
>>
>>Winfried
>>
>>--
>>http://www.tilanus.com
>>xmpp:winfried@jabber.xs4all.nl
>>tel. 015-3613996 / 06-23303960
>>fax. 015-3614406
>>
>>
I have been an "expert" on close to a dozen patent/copyright suits.
Unfortunately in situations like these there is only one ultimate
solution-someone has to sue someone and get the issue resolved in
court. Although the arguements presented here come from bright
people they are, albeit educated, merely opinions. Also if either
side would cousult some plethora of lawyers we would not have a
resolution, merely a plethore more opinions. Although I am a
neophyte in the Debian community I humbly suggest that this thread be
dropped.
Larry
>>--
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>ebian.org
>>
>>
>>




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Old 01-18-2009, 05:37 PM
 
Default k3b & brasero don't work, nerolinux does- works ar 2X

"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss@iguanasuicide.net> wrote:

> >> "Unfortunately Sun then developed the CDDL[1] and Jörg Schilling
> >> released parts of recent versions of cdrtools under this license."
> >>
> >> True.
> >Given the fact that attacking Sun (the largest donator of OpenSOurce
> > software) is definitely FUD, we can safely ignore your post.
>
> I not sure how you characterize this as "attacking Sun". Is it not true
> that Sun released the CDDL? Is it not true that parts of cdrtools are

Using the word "unfortunately" in relation with a OSS donation is a really bad
attack. Please tell me why Sun was attacked?

Jörg

--
EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni)
joerg.schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) Blog: http://schily.blogspot.com/
URL: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/ ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily


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Old 01-18-2009, 09:56 PM
Lisi Reisz
 
Default k3b & brasero don't work, nerolinux does- works ar 2X

On Sunday 18 January 2009 18:37:38 Joerg Schilling wrote:
> "Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss@iguanasuicide.net> wrote:
> > >> "Unfortunately Sun then developed the CDDL[1] and Jörg Schilling
> > >> released parts of recent versions of cdrtools under this license."
> > >>
> > >> True.
> > >
> > >Given the fact that attacking Sun (the largest donator of OpenSOurce
> > > software) is definitely FUD, we can safely ignore your post.
> >
> > I not sure how you characterize this as "attacking Sun". Is it not true
> > that Sun released the CDDL? Is it not true that parts of cdrtools are
>
> Using the word "unfortunately" in relation with a OSS donation is a really
> bad attack. Please tell me why Sun was attacked?

Sun wasn't attacked, so noone can tell you why it was.

It would appear that English is not your native language since you seem
frequently just to misunderstand what is said. Are you perhaps
(mis)translating into another language? Or are you perversely deliberately
misundersanding?

Anyhow, I apologise to the rest of you for having lost my battle with myself
and fed the troll. But that last statement is such linguistic and semantic
nonsense, I could no longer resist.

Perhaps we should all now go home to tea and leave the troll to feed himself?

Lisi


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