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Old 12-10-2008, 09:05 PM
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr."
 
Default problem with SATA disk, difference between standard kernel and Debian kernel

On Wednesday 2008 December 10 15:15:56 lee wrote:
>what's the difference between a standard kernel and a kernel that
>comes as a Debian package?

The Debian kernel has some non-free (as in: source not available) parts
removed. There are also Debian-specific patches added.

>So is there a difference between Debian and standard kernels so that I
>might not have this problem if I'd use a Debian kernel?

Not that I know of.

>Has this
>problem been solved in some way yet?

Not that I know of.

You (or someone else that can reliably reproduce the problem -- perhaps some
paid support personnel) need to work with the kernel developers to identify
why the kernel is "losing" the drive and if it is due to a bug in the kernel
or some hardware issue that can be worked around in the kernel.

Yeah, it's a problem, but it's virtually impossible to diagnose that kind of
error without instrumenting (jargon: attaching real-/run-time sensors to) the
kernel and reproducing the problem, many times.

Causing the kernel to "dump" (similar to a process coredumping, but the whole
kernel) when some symptom (super_written get error = -5, maybe?) manifests
might give you an image that a kernel hacker could perform a post-mortem on.
Enough dumps might show a pattern.

If you can find a kernel that does work, you might be able to do a "git
bisect" and identify the patch(es) that broke you -- but that would certainly
be a project. How much resources do you want to spend on fixing the problem?
(If you kick in enough, I'll bet the kernel hackers will kick in some, too.)
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Old 12-10-2008, 09:10 PM
Celejar
 
Default problem with SATA disk, difference between standard kernel and Debian kernel

On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:05:26 -0600
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> wrote:

> On Wednesday 2008 December 10 15:15:56 lee wrote:
> >what's the difference between a standard kernel and a kernel that
> >comes as a Debian package?
>
> The Debian kernel has some non-free (as in: source not available) parts
> removed. There are also Debian-specific patches added.

The vanilla kernel has non-free stuff in it? I thought it's all GPL.

Celejar
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Old 12-10-2008, 09:21 PM
Ron Johnson
 
Default problem with SATA disk, difference between standard kernel and Debian kernel

On 12/10/08 16:10, Celejar wrote:

On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:05:26 -0600
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> wrote:


On Wednesday 2008 December 10 15:15:56 lee wrote:

what's the difference between a standard kernel and a kernel that
comes as a Debian package?
The Debian kernel has some non-free (as in: source not available) parts
removed. There are also Debian-specific patches added.


The vanilla kernel has non-free stuff in it? I thought it's all GPL.


Some drivers have firmware blobs encoded in them as really long byte
arrays. They are de jure GPL, but, practically, are closed source.


--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

How does being physically handicapped make me Differently-Abled?
What different abilities do I have?


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Old 12-10-2008, 09:53 PM
Celejar
 
Default problem with SATA disk, difference between standard kernel and Debian kernel

On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:21:26 -0600
Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> wrote:

> On 12/10/08 16:10, Celejar wrote:
> > On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:05:26 -0600
> > "Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Wednesday 2008 December 10 15:15:56 lee wrote:
> >>> what's the difference between a standard kernel and a kernel that
> >>> comes as a Debian package?
> >> The Debian kernel has some non-free (as in: source not available) parts
> >> removed. There are also Debian-specific patches added.
> >
> > The vanilla kernel has non-free stuff in it? I thought it's all GPL.
>
> Some drivers have firmware blobs encoded in them as really long byte
> arrays. They are de jure GPL, but, practically, are closed source.

And Debian removes these, even thought they're technically GPL? Any
examples?

> Ron Johnson, Jr.

Celejar
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Old 12-10-2008, 09:57 PM
Ron Johnson
 
Default problem with SATA disk, difference between standard kernel and Debian kernel

On 12/10/08 16:53, Celejar wrote:

On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:21:26 -0600
Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> wrote:


On 12/10/08 16:10, Celejar wrote:

On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:05:26 -0600
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> wrote:


On Wednesday 2008 December 10 15:15:56 lee wrote:

what's the difference between a standard kernel and a kernel that
comes as a Debian package?
The Debian kernel has some non-free (as in: source not available) parts
removed. There are also Debian-specific patches added.

The vanilla kernel has non-free stuff in it? I thought it's all GPL.
Some drivers have firmware blobs encoded in them as really long byte
arrays. They are de jure GPL, but, practically, are closed source.


And Debian removes these, even thought they're technically GPL? Any
examples?


Not that I know of (since I don't use WiFi or anything exotic).

--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

How does being physically handicapped make me Differently-Abled?
What different abilities do I have?


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Old 12-10-2008, 10:16 PM
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr."
 
Default problem with SATA disk, difference between standard kernel and Debian kernel

On Wednesday 2008 December 10 16:10:16 Celejar wrote:
>On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:05:26 -0600
>
>"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> wrote:
>> On Wednesday 2008 December 10 15:15:56 lee wrote:
>> >what's the difference between a standard kernel and a kernel that
>> >comes as a Debian package?
>>
>> The Debian kernel has some non-free (as in: source not available) parts
>> removed. There are also Debian-specific patches added.
>
>The vanilla kernel has non-free stuff in it? I thought it's all GPL.

Different interpretations of the GPLv2, I suppose. Linus seems fine with
binary blobs -- basically machine codes -- that are uploaded to devices as
part of initialization. The kernel never directly runs such code.
The "source" as far as Linus is concerned is the data itself, similar to the
way a image might be it's own source. [1]

Debian focuses more on the mutability of the code, and the intent of the GPL
that "source code" means the "preferred form for making modifications". It's
been too long since I read the GPLv2 to see how explicit that is, but the
GPLv3 did make that much more clear. It's unlikely that this machine code,
is developed directly in hex (or octal, or whatever numerical format). It's
more likely compiled using a specialized compiler (maybe C, maybe a toy
language) or, at least, some sort of symbolic assembler. Even if it is just
symbolic assembly, it would be preferred over the raw machine code for
studying and (possibly) modifying.

Anyway, that's why Debian sometimes removes features from the vanilla
kernel -- the considered (voted on, IIRC) opinion that those parts do not
follow the DFSG.

[1] A lot of images aren't their own source. Gimp, Krita, Karbon, Inkscape,
Photoshop, etc. use a format that is better for editing (the source) even if
they also save to more traditional image formats like GIF, PNG, and JPEG.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. * * * * * * * * * * ,= ,-_-. =.
bss03@volumehost.net * * * * * * * * * * *((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy * * * * * `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.org/ * * * * * * * * * * *\_/ * *
 
Old 12-10-2008, 10:20 PM
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr."
 
Default problem with SATA disk, difference between standard kernel and Debian kernel

On Wednesday 2008 December 10 16:57:39 Ron Johnson wrote:
>On 12/10/08 16:53, Celejar wrote:
>> Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@cox.net> wrote:
>>> On 12/10/08 16:10, Celejar wrote:
>>>> "Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday 2008 December 10 15:15:56 lee wrote:
>>>>>> what's the difference between a standard kernel and a kernel that
>>>>>> comes as a Debian package?
>>>>>
>>>>> The Debian kernel has some non-free (as in: source not available) parts
>>>>> removed. There are also Debian-specific patches added.
>>>>
>>>> The vanilla kernel has non-free stuff in it? I thought it's all GPL.
>>>
>>> Some drivers have firmware blobs encoded in them as really long byte
>>> arrays. They are de jure GPL, but, practically, are closed source.
>>
>> And Debian removes these, even thought they're technically GPL? Any
>> examples?
>
>Not that I know of (since I don't use WiFi or anything exotic).

iwl3945 -- My personal cross to bear.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. * * * * * * * * * * ,= ,-_-. =.
bss03@volumehost.net * * * * * * * * * * *((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy * * * * * `-'(. .)`-'
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:32 PM
Celejar
 
Default problem with SATA disk, difference between standard kernel and Debian kernel

On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 17:16:24 -0600
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr." <bss03@volumehost.net> wrote:

...

> Different interpretations of the GPLv2, I suppose. Linus seems fine with

...

> Anyway, that's why Debian sometimes removes features from the vanilla
> kernel -- the considered (voted on, IIRC) opinion that those parts do not
> follow the DFSG.

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

Celejar
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