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Old 12-10-2008, 10:35 AM
Tom Ashley
 
Default Confusion about legality of Linux

This link was recently posted to the Ubuntu Users list and I thought you
might find it worth reading.

http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html

Tom Ashley


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Old 12-10-2008, 10:50 AM
"Sam Kuper"
 
Default Confusion about legality of Linux

2008/12/10 Tom Ashley <tomashleyjr@gmail.com>

This link was recently posted to the Ubuntu Users list and I thought you

might find it worth reading.



http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html


"After confiscating the disks I called a confrence with the student and that is how I came to discover you and your organization ... I cannot either support your efforts or allow them to happen in my classroom*...*putting linux on these machines is holding our kids back ..."

Bloody hell, that's a teacher who ought to be disciplined for libel, and maybe also for theft (since the physical disks were the student's property and were not hers to take unless she was freely offered them).
 
Old 12-10-2008, 11:33 AM
Nate Bargmann
 
Default Confusion about legality of Linux

* Sam Kuper <sam.kuper@uclmail.net> [2008 Dec 10 05:52 -0600]:
> 2008/12/10 Tom Ashley <tomashleyjr@gmail.com>
>
> > This link was recently posted to the Ubuntu Users list and I thought you
> > might find it worth reading.
> >
> > http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html
> >
>
> "After confiscating the disks I called a confrence with the student and that
> is how I came to discover you and your organization ... I cannot either
> support your efforts or allow them to happen in my classroom ... putting
> linux on these machines is holding our kids back ..."
>
> Bloody hell, that's a teacher who ought to be disciplined for libel, and
> maybe also for theft (since the physical disks were the student's property
> and were not hers to take unless she was freely offered them).

No doubt, the teacher in question was misinformed, but, she does have
the right to do what she needs to do to quell a disturbance and restore
order in her classroom. After she is informed on the matter and
understands that the disks are not illegal, contrary to her initial
claims, she should return the disks to Aaron. She also has the right
and obligation to enforce rules of conduct in her classroom and if that
involves no use of laptops except for school work, then so be it.

I do hope that she comes away from this experience not embarrassed and
angry, but rather with an appreciation of the path of learning that her
students would like to voluntarily take.

- Nate >>

--

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://n0nb.us/index.html


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Old 12-10-2008, 11:52 AM
"Sam Kuper"
 
Default Confusion about legality of Linux

2008/12/10 Nate Bargmann <n0nb@n0nb.us>
> * Sam Kuper <sam.kuper@uclmail.net> [2008 Dec 10 05:52 -0600]:
> > 2008/12/10 Tom Ashley <tomashleyjr@gmail.com>
> > > http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html
> > "After confiscating the disks I called a confrence with the student and that
> > is how I came to discover you and your organization ... I cannot either
> > support your efforts or allow them to happen in my classroom ... putting
> > linux on these machines is holding our kids back ..."
> >
> > Bloody hell, that's a teacher who ought to be disciplined for libel, and
> > maybe also for theft (since the physical disks were the student's property
> > and were not hers to take unless she was freely offered them).
>
> No doubt, the teacher in question was misinformed, but, she does have
> the right to do what she needs to do to quell a disturbance and restore
> order in her classroom.

My feeling is that she should have investigated whether this really
was a "disturbance" before intervening. It is not clear to me that the
action she took was "needed". Hence my comment.

> After she is informed on the matter and
> understands that the disks are not illegal, contrary to her initial
> claims, she should return the disks to Aaron. She also has the right
> and obligation to enforce rules of conduct in her classroom and if that
> involves no use of laptops except for school work, then so be it.

We don't know what Aaron was demonstrating. It may be that he was
showing his classmates that they could potentially improve their
productivity and understanding re: school work by using open source
software. If what he was doing was totally irrelevant to the class,
then perhaps she was right to tell him to stop, but that does not
suggest to me that she needed to confiscate the disks, nor that she
was right to libel* Ken Starks, "I assure you, the claims you make are
grossly over-stated and hinge on falsehoods".

> I do hope that she comes away from this experience not embarrassed and
> angry, but rather with an appreciation of the path of learning that her
> students would like to voluntarily take.

I broadly agree, though I do feel a degree of embarrassment on her
part would not be inappropriate.

Sam

*In my opinion. IANAL.


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Old 12-10-2008, 12:08 PM
"Bryan Bishop"
 
Default Confusion about legality of Linux

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 5:35 AM, Tom Ashley wrote:
> http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html

As a student resident in Austin, and debian fanatic, I'm disappointed.
Should I show up for some physical backup support at the school, or
send some free CDs over to AISD headquarters?

All joking aside, this does strike me as peculiar. Not because it's
yet another uninformed individual, but because it's a teacher, who
would supposedly support the values of education, free software, gift
economies, etc. But this isn't common to all teachers, I know, they
all have their odd reasons for being where they are. And some might
just end up in the job without knowing why.

I wonder if I should bring this up at the Austin Linux User Group or
Central Texas Linux Group.

http://austinlug.org/
http://ctlug.org/

Not much to do but shake our heads.

- Bryan
http://heybryan.org/
1 512 203 0507


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Old 12-10-2008, 12:11 PM
Nate Bargmann
 
Default Confusion about legality of Linux

* Sam Kuper <sam.kuper@uclmail.net> [2008 Dec 10 06:54 -0600]:
> 2008/12/10 Nate Bargmann <n0nb@n0nb.us>
> > * Sam Kuper <sam.kuper@uclmail.net> [2008 Dec 10 05:52 -0600]:
> > > 2008/12/10 Tom Ashley <tomashleyjr@gmail.com>
> > > > http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html
> > > "After confiscating the disks I called a confrence with the student and that
> > > is how I came to discover you and your organization ... I cannot either
> > > support your efforts or allow them to happen in my classroom ... putting
> > > linux on these machines is holding our kids back ..."
> > >
> > > Bloody hell, that's a teacher who ought to be disciplined for libel, and
> > > maybe also for theft (since the physical disks were the student's property
> > > and were not hers to take unless she was freely offered them).
> >
> > No doubt, the teacher in question was misinformed, but, she does have
> > the right to do what she needs to do to quell a disturbance and restore
> > order in her classroom.
>
> My feeling is that she should have investigated whether this really
> was a "disturbance" before intervening. It is not clear to me that the
> action she took was "needed". Hence my comment.

Like me you're probably not an authority figure, there fore our
reaction would be quite different. Her training and mindset are that
of authority figure and her actions as described were consistent with
authority figures as I recall from my youth.

> > After she is informed on the matter and
> > understands that the disks are not illegal, contrary to her initial
> > claims, she should return the disks to Aaron. She also has the right
> > and obligation to enforce rules of conduct in her classroom and if that
> > involves no use of laptops except for school work, then so be it.
>
> We don't know what Aaron was demonstrating. It may be that he was
> showing his classmates that they could potentially improve their
> productivity and understanding re: school work by using open source
> software.

It's possible, but recalling my attitude as a kid, I would have been
demonstrating anything but homework or how to do it easier, etc. While
I doubt that kids in t he main have chnaged much, there are alwayst the
exceptions.

> If what he was doing was totally irrelevant to the class,
> then perhaps she was right to tell him to stop, but that does not
> suggest to me that she needed to confiscate the disks, nor that she
> was right to libel* Ken Starks, "I assure you, the claims you make are
> grossly over-stated and hinge on falsehoods".

If the student's action were irrelevant to the class, then she has the
obligation to restore order. Yes, she was completely wrong about Ken
and his mission, which I applaud highly. However, her approach to Ken
belies her vision of herself as an authority figure and her natural
inclination to set the world right on her terms. Still, she is the
head of the classroom and must be the sole authority in that setting.

> > I do hope that she comes away from this experience not embarrassed and
> > angry, but rather with an appreciation of the path of learning that her
> > students would like to voluntarily take.
>
> I broadly agree, though I do feel a degree of embarrassment on her
> part would not be inappropriate.

Heh. I think I understand your intentions and I do relish the thought
myself. However, as I understand authority figures, embarassment
usually leads directly to anger and revenge.

I look forward to reading Ken's next installment on this matter.

> *In my opinion. IANAL.

My opinion as well. Have a great day.

- Nate >>

--

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://n0nb.us/index.html


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Old 12-10-2008, 03:00 PM
marc
 
Default Confusion about legality of Linux

Nate Bargmann said...
> * Sam Kuper <sam.kuper@uclmail.net> [2008 Dec 10 06:54 -0600]:
> > 2008/12/10 Nate Bargmann <n0nb@n0nb.us>

> > My feeling is that she should have investigated whether this really
> > was a "disturbance" before intervening. It is not clear to me that the
> > action she took was "needed". Hence my comment.
>
> Like me you're probably not an authority figure, there fore our
> reaction would be quite different. Her training and mindset are that
> of authority figure and her actions as described were consistent with
> authority figures as I recall from my youth.

But she is, above all, an educator. That trumps authority, at least it
does in schools; after all, is the priority of a school to educate or to
discipline? And if educators these days are scared of the new, then
heaven help us.

--
Cheers,
Marc


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Old 12-10-2008, 03:06 PM
"Jeff Soules"
 
Default Confusion about legality of Linux

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:00 AM, marc <gmane@auxbuss.com> wrote:
> after all, is the priority of a school to educate or to discipline?

For an American public school? Unfortunately, probably the latter.
Pray forgive my cynicism...


On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:00 AM, marc <gmane@auxbuss.com> wrote:
> Nate Bargmann said...
>> * Sam Kuper <sam.kuper@uclmail.net> [2008 Dec 10 06:54 -0600]:
>> > 2008/12/10 Nate Bargmann <n0nb@n0nb.us>
>
>> > My feeling is that she should have investigated whether this really
>> > was a "disturbance" before intervening. It is not clear to me that the
>> > action she took was "needed". Hence my comment.
>>
>> Like me you're probably not an authority figure, there fore our
>> reaction would be quite different. Her training and mindset are that
>> of authority figure and her actions as described were consistent with
>> authority figures as I recall from my youth.
>
> But she is, above all, an educator. That trumps authority, at least it
> does in schools; after all, is the priority of a school to educate or to
> discipline? And if educators these days are scared of the new, then
> heaven help us.
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Marc


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Old 12-10-2008, 03:34 PM
Rob Starling
 
Default Confusion about legality of Linux

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 07:08:48AM -0600, Bryan Bishop wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 5:35 AM, Tom Ashley wrote:
> > http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html
...
> All joking aside, this does strike me as peculiar. Not because it's
> yet another uninformed individual, but because it's a teacher, who
> would supposedly support the values of education, free software, gift
> economies, etc. But this isn't common to all teachers, I know, they
> all have their odd reasons for being where they are. And some might
> just end up in the job without knowing why.

the blog post seems too troll-y to me. maybe we should wait
for Ken to reply to all the "did this really happen" comments
before getting too worked up. lines like "no software is free",
and "I along with many others tried Linux during college" are
just too perfect for this to real.

--Rob

--
/-------------------------------------------------------------
| "If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane" |
| --Jimmy Buffett, |
| "Changes in Latitudes, Changes in Attitudes" |
-------------------------------------------------------------/


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Old 12-10-2008, 03:46 PM
Bob Cox
 
Default Confusion about legality of Linux

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 08:34:23 -0800, Rob Starling (debian-user@robstarling.org) wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 07:08:48AM -0600, Bryan Bishop wrote:
> > On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 5:35 AM, Tom Ashley wrote:
> > > http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html
> ...
> > All joking aside, this does strike me as peculiar. Not because it's
> > yet another uninformed individual, but because it's a teacher, who
> > would supposedly support the values of education, free software, gift
> > economies, etc. But this isn't common to all teachers, I know, they
> > all have their odd reasons for being where they are. And some might
> > just end up in the job without knowing why.
>
> the blog post seems too troll-y to me. maybe we should wait
> for Ken to reply to all the "did this really happen" comments
> before getting too worked up. lines like "no software is free",
> and "I along with many others tried Linux during college" are
> just too perfect for this to real.

Agreed. And wouldn't a teacher know how to spell "conference"? Ok, it
could be a typo, but there is also another line with some rather dodgy
grammar, which does not really ring true either.

--
Bob Cox. Stoke Gifford, near Bristol, UK.
Please reply to the list only. Do NOT send copies directly to me.
Debian on the NSLU2: http://bobcox.com/slug/


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