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Old 11-05-2008, 12:25 PM
"Koh Choon Lin"
 
Default When stability is pointless

>> > Are package managers necessary? Well, no.
>>
>> What???? We need this to keep consistency, ...
>>
>> > One way of managing software
>> > is simply to install individual software programs/libraries as needed,
>> > and allow each item to handle its own updating or uninstallation (or
>> > even just leave that to the user to do manually).
>>
>> Within stable Debian and security updates and volatile, this is supported.
>
> If the OP would like to do things manually, I invite him to try
> Slackware as there is no default package manager (or a very minimal one
> that will install and remove packages but not much more). Packages are
> little changed from their upstream release and if there are conflicts
> between packages, well the system administrator gets to figure that
> out.
>
>> I do not know what you mean by "manually", though.
>
> See Slackware. ;-)
>

It seems to me the cleanest form of manual package management is still
the old DOS style. All the files of a single program lies in one
directory and to uninstall the program would just involve a simple
removal of the directory.

If I recall correctly a few years ago, there exist a distro that was
produced entirely for this kind of pkg philosophy.



--
In Liberty
Koh Choon Lin


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Old 11-05-2008, 12:25 PM
"Koh Choon Lin"
 
Default When stability is pointless

>> > Are package managers necessary? Well, no.
>>
>> What???? We need this to keep consistency, ...
>>
>> > One way of managing software
>> > is simply to install individual software programs/libraries as needed,
>> > and allow each item to handle its own updating or uninstallation (or
>> > even just leave that to the user to do manually).
>>
>> Within stable Debian and security updates and volatile, this is supported.
>
> If the OP would like to do things manually, I invite him to try
> Slackware as there is no default package manager (or a very minimal one
> that will install and remove packages but not much more). Packages are
> little changed from their upstream release and if there are conflicts
> between packages, well the system administrator gets to figure that
> out.
>
>> I do not know what you mean by "manually", though.
>
> See Slackware. ;-)
>

It seems to me the cleanest form of manual package management is still
the old DOS style. All the files of a single program lies in one
directory and to uninstall the program would just involve a simple
removal of the directory.

If I recall correctly a few years ago, there exist a distro that was
produced entirely for this kind of pkg philosophy.



--
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Koh Choon Lin

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Old 11-05-2008, 12:31 PM
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
 
Default When stability is pointless

Koh Choon Lin wrote:
> It seems to me the cleanest form of manual package management is still
> the old DOS style. All the files of a single program lies in one
> directory and to uninstall the program would just involve a simple
> removal of the directory.
>
> If I recall correctly a few years ago, there exist a distro that was
> produced entirely for this kind of pkg philosophy.
>

There exists one now, but I'm not sure if it's the same one:
http://www.gobolinux.org/


--
Bell Labs Unix -- Reach out and grep someone.

Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
eduardo@kalinowski.com.br
http://move.to/hpkb


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Old 11-05-2008, 12:48 PM
Tzafrir Cohen
 
Default When stability is pointless

On Wed, Nov 05, 2008 at 09:25:24PM +0800, Koh Choon Lin wrote:
> >> > Are package managers necessary? Well, no.
> >>
> >> What???? We need this to keep consistency, ...
> >>
> >> > One way of managing software
> >> > is simply to install individual software programs/libraries as needed,
> >> > and allow each item to handle its own updating or uninstallation (or
> >> > even just leave that to the user to do manually).
> >>
> >> Within stable Debian and security updates and volatile, this is supported.
> >
> > If the OP would like to do things manually, I invite him to try
> > Slackware as there is no default package manager (or a very minimal one
> > that will install and remove packages but not much more). Packages are
> > little changed from their upstream release and if there are conflicts
> > between packages, well the system administrator gets to figure that
> > out.
> >
> >> I do not know what you mean by "manually", though.
> >
> > See Slackware. ;-)
> >
>
> It seems to me the cleanest form of manual package management is still
> the old DOS style. All the files of a single program lies in one
> directory and to uninstall the program would just involve a simple
> removal of the directory.

How do you uninstall gdm? Remove the directory "gdm"? The directory
"gnome-base"? The directory "gnome"? Would you be surprised that your
GNOME setup is suddenly broken?

There is indeed gobolinux that implements this. And as you can see, this
concept is simply not popular even though it has been around for a long
time.

--
Tzafrir Cohen | tzafrir@jabber.org | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il | | a Mutt's
tzafrir@cohens.org.il | | best
ICQ# 16849754 | | friend


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Old 11-05-2008, 01:00 PM
Ron Johnson
 
Default When stability is pointless

On 11/05/08 07:25, Koh Choon Lin wrote:
[snip]


It seems to me the cleanest form of manual package management is still
the old DOS style. All the files of a single program lies in one
directory and to uninstall the program would just involve a simple
removal of the directory.


That works only in relatively simple systems with no maze of complex
shared libraries.


That works well in DOS, and pretty well in Windows, where you rely
on the Windows API, or bring your own "shared" DLLs.


It even works to a degree in Linux on systems where packages have
extremely low granularity. But Debian purposefully creates highly
granular binary packages so that people can decide to install only
what they want.


--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

"I won't have to worry about putting gas in my car, I won't
have to worry about paying my mortgage."
Peggy Joseph, on why she loves Obama


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Old 11-05-2008, 01:00 PM
John Hasler
 
Default When stability is pointless

Koh Choon Lin writes:
> It seems to me the cleanest form of manual package management is still
> the old DOS style. All the files of a single program lies in one
> directory

Each with its own copy of all its dependencies, including libc and all
other libraries it calls and all the programs and daemons it uses such as
dbus and hal. Sure. And then when there is a critical update to libc or
some other widely-used thing you get to upgrade every package on your
system, one at a time, as the maintainers get new packages ready. You have
the fun of downloading each of those dependencies hundreds of times and
finding space for them all.

Why not give each package its own kernel while you are at it?
--
John Hasler


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Old 11-05-2008, 01:21 PM
"Robert Caruso"
 
Default When stability is pointless

Please remove me from this chain of nonsense


Robert Caruso
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-----Original Message-----
From: John Hasler [mailto:jhasler@debian.org]
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 6:01 AM
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: When stability is pointless

Koh Choon Lin writes:
> It seems to me the cleanest form of manual package management is still
> the old DOS style. All the files of a single program lies in one
> directory

Each with its own copy of all its dependencies, including libc and all other
libraries it calls and all the programs and daemons it uses such as dbus and
hal. Sure. And then when there is a critical update to libc or some other
widely-used thing you get to upgrade every package on your system, one at a
time, as the maintainers get new packages ready. You have the fun of
downloading each of those dependencies hundreds of times and finding space
for them all.

Why not give each package its own kernel while you are at it?
--
John Hasler


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listmaster@lists.debian.org



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Old 11-05-2008, 02:26 PM
Johannes Wiedersich
 
Default When stability is pointless

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Hash: SHA1

Robert Caruso wrote:
> Please remove me from this chain of nonsense

To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
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listmaster@lists.debian.org

;-)

Johannes
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Old 11-05-2008, 05:09 PM
Emanoil Kotsev
 
Default When stability is pointless

John Hasler wrote:

> Koh Choon Lin writes:
>> It seems to me the cleanest form of manual package management is still
>> the old DOS style. All the files of a single program lies in one
>> directory
>
> Each with its own copy of all its dependencies, including libc and all
> other libraries it calls and all the programs and daemons it uses such as
> dbus and hal. Sure. And then when there is a critical update to libc or
> some other widely-used thing you get to upgrade every package on your
> system, one at a time, as the maintainers get new packages ready. You
> have the fun of downloading each of those dependencies hundreds of times
> and finding space for them all.
>
> Why not give each package its own kernel while you are at it?

I don't think he meant something like chroot env. What he means is build
with unique --prefix, what I exactly do for testing purposes. If the test
is ok then I package with dpkg-buildpackage or similar.

regards


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Old 11-09-2008, 11:48 AM
"James Youngman"
 
Default When stability is pointless

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 5:40 AM, Nate Duehr <nate@natetech.com> wrote:
> It is very common for software developers to plow ahead without thinking
> much about the versions the distros provide.
>
> You may want to contact them and see how they would expect users to use
> their software effectively.
>
> It's likely: They won't care.

I think that in may cases, this is an unfair characterisation. I'm
biased though, I'm an upstream maintainer. I hardly ever hear from
the distributions, despite the fact that the software I maintain is
installed on over 99% of Linux machines (according to Debian popcon,
about 99.8%). The sole exception is Debian (hi, Andreas!).

I'm pretty sure the reason here is, once again, manpower. The
distibutions include thousands of packages and so the staff who are
paid to look after the distribution hardly have any time at all to
interact with the upstream comunities, at least on average. The
distributions need to figure out where to spend their staff time, and
it unsurprisingly most of it goes on high-priority things like glibc,
Apache, and the kernel, as you say.

Regarding documentation though, I guess the situation is easier in my
case; all the documentation that is available for findutils ships in
the source tarball, so users always have access to a full set of
documentation relevant to the software they are using (they may need
to install a separate -doc package, but that's a whole other
flamewar).

James.


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