Osamu Aoki wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Short answer is "hal is accepted now for lenny d-i"
>
> On Sat, Oct 11, 2008 at 01:05:09AM +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:
>> Osamu Aoki wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 04:01:59PM +0800, paragasu wrote:
>>>> maybethe debian installer do not permit you to use the username hal.
>>>> Create any user. after the installer finish.. you can login and create
>>>> user 'Hal' with
>>>> adduser..
>>> hal package have changed ...
>>> hal (0.5.7.1-1) unstable; urgency=low
>>>
>>> [ Sjoerd Simons ]
>>> * New upstream release
>>> * debian/hal.postinst,debian/hal.postrm,debian/rules: Rename the hal daemon
>>> user to haldaemon (was hal)
>> If debian-installer is still reserving the name "hal" for the hal
>> package, then this should be fixed within debian-installer.
>>
>> Please file a bug against the "debian-installer" package.
>
> Is this right package? user-setup is the one I think.
>
> Let's look in... OP was using etch installer.
>
> Available hal versions
> Oldstable 0.4.7-3sarge1
> Stable 0.5.8.1-9etch1
> Testing 0.5.11-3
> Unstable 0.5.11-5
>
> As I understand,
> 0.5.7.1-1 = Tue, 15 Aug 2006
> 0.5.8.1-9 = Wed, 14 Mar 2007
>
> Hmmm... this is odd. There is no udeb either from hal package. Let's
> see ...
>
> In pool directory of lenny installer iso, user-setup-udeb_1.20_all.udeb
> has /usr/lib/user-setup/reserved-usernames
>
> This one has haldaemon but changelog in source user-setup tells me
>
> user-setup (1.17) unstable; urgency=low
> ...
> [ Colin Watson ]
> * Fix comment attached to passwd/user-default-groups.
> * hal was renamed to haldaemon in hal 0.5.7.1-1; Hal is also a reasonablyt
> common human name. Remove it from reserved-usernames.
> ...
> -- Christian Perrier <bubulle@debian.org> Fri, 11 Jan 2008 18:56:46 +0100
>
> So this is fixed bug. I doubts they will update etch installer just for
> this fix. If you know better, please pursue.
>

Hi Osamu,

thanks for the nice summary!

I agree with you, that given that this issue is fixed for the lenny
installer resp. user-setup and lenny is about to be released in the
foreseeable future, it's likely this bug won't be fixed anymore for etch.
I actually don't know, if a new point release with a new installer is
even planned for etch.

Cheers,
Michael

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Hal Vaughan wrote:

>
> But I've learned, the hard way, NEVER file a bug report in a FOSS
> project. I have several times and have yet to find one where the
> developers were appreciative of the bug report. I'll go even farther:
> In most cases they've been outright hostile and I've had times where
> they've "told me off" to justify closing the bug.
>

If that would be true, do you think that *two* DDs would even bother to
reply to you on this list and research this issue to get it fixed?

I have learned, that in FOSS it is really important how you say things.
Remember that we are all volunteers and love what we do (and often feel
very emotional about it).

If you are getting bug reports which are insulting or call your work a
load of crap, then you are much less inclined to work on this issue.

A few kind words and appreciation can do wonders.

Cheers,
Michael
--
Why is it that all of the instruments seeking intelligent life in the
universe are pointed away from Earth?

On Saturday 11 October 2008, Michael Biebl wrote:
> Hal Vaughan wrote:
> > But I've learned, the hard way, NEVER file a bug report in a FOSS
> > project. I have several times and have yet to find one where the
> > developers were appreciative of the bug report. I'll go even
> > farther: In most cases they've been outright hostile and I've had
> > times where they've "told me off" to justify closing the bug.
>
> If that would be true, do you think that *two* DDs would even bother
> to reply to you on this list and research this issue to get it fixed?

Then they can bring up the point with other DDs that there is at least
one person with the perception that filing a bug report is a guarantee
of a nasty response. While they may not be the kind of developer that
might respond that way, the fact that some do seems to create an issue.
I did mention this before when it was part of a topic, but only because
it was directly related to the topic. If I feel this way and didn't
want to mention it until it was on topic, what are the chances that
nobody else has ever felt this way?

These two DDs might be eager to get reports like that, but I don't know
who will respond and don't know whether or not I'll get a response from
a professionally acting person like them or from someone who just wants
to close it out and not address the issue.

> I have learned, that in FOSS it is really important how you say
> things. Remember that we are all volunteers and love what we do (and
> often feel very emotional about it).
>
> If you are getting bug reports which are insulting or call your work
> a load of crap, then you are much less inclined to work on this
> issue.
>
> A few kind words and appreciation can do wonders.

I make sure, when I file a bug report, that I stick to a technical
description and do NOT insult or say anything negative. I don't feel
anything negative toward the programmer or developer so why should I
call them names or insult them?

I'm a writer by nature and passion, good enough, even, to have been
invited in to deal with national TV on the one time I tried anything in
that venue (and had a producer who many people here likely have heard
of eager to deal with me until that show had to shut the door on
freelancers at one point). I admit, once it hits about midnight, my
writing slips and I don't have the patience to write the "nicey-nice"
type posts that blows smoke up someone's butt as some people might like
to always get, but I know how to not insult people -- unless I want to.

I'll also add, on another note, that if someone is a developer for any
project, it's their responsibility, if a bug report is filed, to not
only asses it, but to also make sure that if it's filed
inappropriately, to direct the reporter to where it should be filed and
to deal with the issue, whether the reporter just reports the facts or
writes a flattering message, or, and this is unfortunate, if the
reporter gives enough details to make it clear there is an issue but is
rude, it's still the developer's responsibility to focus on the issue
and not the language.

Granted, not all of us can do that, though. Any bug report, if it
describes a legitimate negative behavior, needs to be handled rather
than dismissed.


Hal


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2008/10/10 Hal Vaughan <hal@thresholddigital.com>:
> On Friday 10 October 2008, Michael Biebl wrote:
>> Please file a bug against the "debian-installer" package.

> But I've learned, the hard way, NEVER file a bug report in a FOSS
> project.

You must be doing it wrong. I routinely file bugs against Debian
packages and they usually get fixed.

Just file the damn bug. :-)

Or if you think they'll be hostile to you, tell me what the bug is,
and I'll file it. I couldn't really follow, is it just that the
debian-installer is using a username it shouldn't be using?

- Jordi G. H.


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Hal Vaughan wrote:
>
> But I've learned, the hard way, NEVER file a bug report in a FOSS
> project. I have several times and have yet to find one where the
> developers were appreciative of the bug report. I'll go even farther:
> In most cases they've been outright hostile and I've had times where
> they've "told me off" to justify closing the bug.


My experience with Debian developers, though limited, has been quite
positive.

The first time I ever got to know about newsgroups was around eight or
ten years ago. In those days, I frequented the linux newsgroups a lot.
The attitude you describe above is quite popular over, especially with
the gurus. In those 'gurus' view, anybody who does not know things that
are "so obvious to them" is a worthless life draining away the planet's
resources. I am sure the attitude still remains in many newsgroup users.
There is no sense of social etiquette, no sense of politeness or being
courteous -- in fact, many of those people believe these are unnecessary
traits. They are right, but only if you wish to think like a machine ...
which they try to because they are all so fond of science fiction that
they think of it something bigger than life and actually want to get
absorbed in it and perhaps imagine themselves to be a reincarnation of
their favorite cyborg. Perhaps they are just not in good touch with
humanity.

Then I discovered Debian. People on this mailing list have been the most
well behaved I have ever seen in the online world. They are
knowledgeable, appropriately polite and courteous and well informed. It
is always nice to read people views here. Things get rough sometimes,
but that is within reasonable limits ... that is how the world is. And I
haven't really looked back and seldom visit the newsgroups which are
frequented by geeky extremists.

Not to say that I don't believe you about your experience. I am sure
there are developers who are full of air. But most probably, they are
yet to grow up and learn how to interact with fellow human beings.

I have filed some bugs in the past, and the response has been very
positive. For all I know, it is the best support I have had. Though it
required knowledge on the bug filer's part (I was asked for a patch
once, I read up on how to do it and send it off).

I would just like say that you should try to have confidence in debian
developers a bit more. Please ignore the rotten apples and just try to
enjoy the wonderful concept that Debian is.

regards.









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