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Old 12-07-2007, 01:40 AM
"Douglas A. Tutty"
 
Default Preferred Backup Method?

On Thu, Dec 06, 2007 at 04:43:08PM -0500, Paul Cartwright wrote:
> On Thu December 6 2007, David Brodbeck wrote:
> > > The installer acts as a weed-eater: it weeds out users who don't read
> > > the docs. ?If you don't read, the partioner will kill you.
> >
> > At least it doesn't require a pocket calculator anymore. ?When I ?
> > first installed it you had to manually calculate cylinder boundaries!
> >
> > OpenBSD is fun, secure, and interesting, but they don't make a secret ?
> > of being newbie-hostile
>
> I don't know about newbie hostile, but I would say it is definitely a UNIX
> guru environment.. just trying to download was a frustrating 30 minutes.
> there was no "*.iso" like 99.999% of the other distros use. Then it took me a
> while to figure out if it was even going to install/run an X environment.
> Don't even ask about a LiveCD..
> and I've installed UNIX from 36 floppy disks!

They want you to spend the $50 and buy the CDs. You _can_ just download
the what you need via ftp, put it all in a directory, and burn it to a
CD. Then burn the boot .iso, or make the boot floppy, and away you go.

Now, with 4.2, they have one install42.iso that has all the install sets
on it. You'll need that install42.iso and the MD5 to verify it.
If you're doing something different, you may need something else. I
haven't check, for example, to see if the floppy boot image is on
install42.iso.

I don't know about a LiveCD but it comes with Xorg and a basic window
manager. Durring install you must say yes to the question that asks if
you intend to run X.

A couple of differences between a base Debian install and OpenBSD:

Comes with sendmail set up for internet mail. You can install
other MTAs from packages but you'll have to configure it as if
you had installed from the tarball (no debian hand-holding).

It is BSD not Linux. Linux is a bit of SysV and a bit of BSD.
Permission of files inherit a bit of the directory they're in (I
forget the details). Initscrips are rc NOT SysV. If you add a
package you have to write the initscript snippet.

network setup is different.

The good news is that all of these basics are in the faq. The
absolute definitive documentation is in the man pages available
when you install and on the openbsd web site.


I am not a unix guru. Everything I learned, I learned in Debian and
from two books on unix: Unix System Administration Handbook and
Absolute OpenBSD; mostly from working with debian CLI. The concepts are
all the same. The internal workings of the kernels are different but
you don't see that. Unix is Unix. Each unix-like OS and distribution
layers different initscripts and config programs over top of this.

I'd say go for it. If you get really stuck, mail me directly. Troubles
with OpenBSD would be OT on Debian and the people on misc@ openbsd
aren't nice and friendly to anyone especially newbies.

Good luck.

Doug.


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Old 12-07-2007, 11:55 AM
Paul Cartwright
 
Default Preferred Backup Method?

On Thu December 6 2007, Bill Smith wrote:
> I am pleased to announce LiveCD/LiveDVD image updates: * * * * * * * * * *
> * * * 4.2-release for i386 is now available. *There is a bug with the XFCE
> image, so that is still 4.1. amd64 architecture will follow within the
> next few weeks. www.jggimi.homeip.net

wow, amazing how much larger the KDE implementation is than all the others..
almost 50% larger than gnome, and more than twice the size of XFCE..

--
Paul Cartwright
Registered Linux user # 367800
Registered Ubuntu User #12459
 
Old 12-07-2007, 12:45 PM
"Douglas A. Tutty"
 
Default Preferred Backup Method?

On Fri, Dec 07, 2007 at 07:55:55AM -0500, Paul Cartwright wrote:
> On Thu December 6 2007, Bill Smith wrote:
> > I am pleased to announce LiveCD/LiveDVD image updates: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> > ? ? ? 4.2-release for i386 is now available. ?There is a bug with the XFCE
> > image, so that is still 4.1. amd64 architecture will follow within the
> > next few weeks. www.jggimi.homeip.net
>
> wow, amazing how much larger the KDE implementation is than all the others..
> almost 50% larger than gnome, and more than twice the size of XFCE..

They'll all be larger than a non-GUI OpenBSD since regular OBSD doesn't
have all the cruft (compiled against extra libs) that a linux system
does. Any GUI then brings in far more libs than on linux.

Doug.


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Old 12-07-2007, 02:21 PM
Ron Johnson
 
Default Preferred Backup Method?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 12/07/07 07:45, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 07, 2007 at 07:55:55AM -0500, Paul Cartwright wrote:
>> On Thu December 6 2007, Bill Smith wrote:
>>> I am pleased to announce LiveCD/LiveDVD image updates: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
>>> ? ? ? 4.2-release for i386 is now available. ?There is a bug with the XFCE
>>> image, so that is still 4.1. amd64 architecture will follow within the
>>> next few weeks. www.jggimi.homeip.net
>> wow, amazing how much larger the KDE implementation is than all the others..
>> almost 50% larger than gnome, and more than twice the size of XFCE..
>
> They'll all be larger than a non-GUI OpenBSD since regular OBSD doesn't
> have all the cruft (compiled against extra libs) that a linux system
> does. Any GUI then brings in far more libs than on linux.

Can you explain that a bit?

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

"Your mistletoe is no match for my TOW missile." Santa-bot
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Old 12-07-2007, 05:53 PM
David Brodbeck
 
Default Preferred Backup Method?

On Dec 6, 2007, at 6:40 PM, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:

It is BSD not Linux. Linux is a bit of SysV and a bit of BSD.
Permission of files inherit a bit of the directory they're in (I
forget the details). Initscrips are rc NOT SysV. If you add a
package you have to write the initscript snippet.


Although FreeBSD has started to include a sort of "mini-SysV" setup,
in /usr/local/etc/rc.d. You can put a script in there and it will be
run with "start" as the argument when the system boots, and "stop"
with the argument when it shuts down. This is a little bit nicer
than /etc/rc.local for stuff you need to shut down gracefully.


I don't know if this has made it into OpenBSD or not.


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Old 12-08-2007, 03:02 AM
 
Default Preferred Backup Method?

[This message has also been posted to linux.debian.user.]
On Wed, Dec 05, 2007 at 03:35:46PM -0800, David Brodbeck wrote:
>
> On Dec 5, 2007, at 3:16 PM, Michael Pobega wrote:
>> tar cvvf foo.tar bar | ssh user@dest "cat > foo.tar"
>>
>> Or am I doing it wrong (I most likely am)? I've never done any sort of
>> piping through SSH before, so any sort of help would be appreciated.
>
> You're close. Try this:
>
> tar cvvf - bar | ssh -e none user@dest "cat >foo.tar"
>
> Using - as the filename tells tar to output to stdout. "-e none" disables
> SSH's escape character, making the session fully transparent -- otherwise
> SSH will go into command mode if your tar output happens to contain a line
> that starts with ~.

What? I've moved many gigabytes through
tar cf - stuff | ssh remotebox tar xf -
If there were a problem with tilde dot in the stream I would
have seen it by now. Let's try an experiment with
Debian boxes truffula (local) and oobleck (remote).

truffula$ cat | ssh oobleck "cat > foo.bar"
this is a line
~.
this is another line
<control-D>
You have new mail in /home/cls/.mbox
truffula$
truffula$ ssh oobleck grep -n "'" foo.bar
1:this is a line
2:~.
3:this is another line
You have new mail in /home/cls/.mbox
truffula$

Well that seems to have worked. (grep -n ' is a trick
for numbering the lines of a text file.)

truffula$ ssh oobleck

Linux oobleck.example.org 2.6.18-5-686 #1 SMP Sun Aug 12 21:57:02 UTC 2007 i686 GNU/Linux

No mail.
Last login: Sat Nov 24 19:01:19 2007 from 192.168.1.221
oobleck$ pwd
/a8/home/cls
oobleck$ <tilde><dot>Connection to oobleck closed.
truffula$

That shows tilde dot works as advertised when you're
talking into a default shell. Wnat if you call a login
shell like any other command?

truffula$ ssh oobleck bash -l -i
cls@oobleck:/a8/home/cls$ uname -n
oobleck.example.org
cls@oobleck:/a8/home/cls$ ~.
bash: line 2: ~.: command not found
cls@oobleck:/a8/home/cls$ exit
You have new mail in /home/cls/.mbox
truffula$

So "ssh host" cares about ~. but "ssh host command" doesn't.
No wonder I've been getting away with tar | ssh tar.
The "-e none" is not necessary.


Cameron





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Old 12-09-2007, 01:23 PM
Brendan
 
Default Preferred Backup Method?

On Wednesday 05 December 2007, s. keeling wrote:
> David Brodbeck <brodbd@u.washington.edu>:
> > On Dec 5, 2007, at 6:52 AM, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> > > Please don't call this the "Usual Python error recovery problems".
> > > Python allows you to trap all the errors it could discover. You just
> > > have to wrap everything in a try block. So if you're getting error
> > > messages in a stack trace, then call it a bug.
> >
> > Fair enough. It's just that probably 90% of the Python software I've
> > used has had this bug, so I came to assume it was inherent with that
> > programming language.
>
> You're not alone wrt python problems. My latest run-in was with
> sarplot, which looks like it would be a great tool. It's on
> Sourceforge, it ran on Redhat at one time ... The Python manner of
> parsing env vars has since changed, and now sarplot is irretrievably
> broken, apparently. Damn. Perfectly good software, into the dustbin.

Until someone comes along and spends an hour fixing it.


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Old 12-09-2007, 01:24 PM
Brendan
 
Default Preferred Backup Method?

On Friday 07 December 2007, Paul Cartwright wrote:
> On Thu December 6 2007, Bill Smith wrote:
> > I am pleased to announce LiveCD/LiveDVD image updates: * * * * * * * * *
> > * 4.2-release for i386 is now available. *There is a bug with the XFCE
> > image, so that is still 4.1. amd64 architecture will follow within the
> > next few weeks. www.jggimi.homeip.net
>
> wow, amazing how much larger the KDE implementation is than all the
> others.. almost 50% larger than gnome, and more than twice the size of
> XFCE..

Because it includes useful software.
 
Old 12-10-2007, 05:12 PM
David Brodbeck
 
Default Preferred Backup Method?

On Dec 7, 2007, at 8:02 PM, cls@truffula.sj.ca.us wrote:


[This message has also been posted to linux.debian.user.]
On Wed, Dec 05, 2007 at 03:35:46PM -0800, David Brodbeck wrote:

You're close. Try this:

tar cvvf - bar | ssh -e none user@dest "cat >foo.tar"

Using - as the filename tells tar to output to stdout. "-e none"
disables
SSH's escape character, making the session fully transparent --
otherwise
SSH will go into command mode if your tar output happens to
contain a line

that starts with ~.


What? I've moved many gigabytes through
tar cf - stuff | ssh remotebox tar xf -
If there were a problem with tilde dot in the stream I would
have seen it by now. Let's try an experiment with
Debian boxes truffula (local) and oobleck (remote).


...


So "ssh host" cares about ~. but "ssh host command" doesn't.
No wonder I've been getting away with tar | ssh tar.
The "-e none" is not necessary.




Hmm, it would seem you're right.

I was going by the ssh manpage, which says:

-e escape_char
Sets the escape character for sessions with a pty
(default: `~').
The escape character is only recognized at the
beginning of a
line. The escape character followed by a dot (`.')
closes the
connection; followed by control-Z suspends the
connection; and
followed by itself sends the escape character once.
Setting the
character to ``none' disables any escapes and makes
the session

fully transparent.


What I didn't pay attention to was the phrase "for sessions with a
pty." It would seem when you call ssh with a command, it doesn't
allocate a pty by default, so the escape character is not honored.
Good to know.



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Old 12-14-2007, 03:10 PM
"Douglas A. Tutty"
 
Default Preferred Backup Method?

On Fri, Dec 07, 2007 at 09:21:30AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 12/07/07 07:45, Douglas A. Tutty wrote:
> > On Fri, Dec 07, 2007 at 07:55:55AM -0500, Paul Cartwright wrote:
> >> On Thu December 6 2007, Bill Smith wrote:
> >>> I am pleased to announce LiveCD/LiveDVD image updates: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> >>> ? ? ? 4.2-release for i386 is now available. ?There is a bug with the XFCE
> >>> image, so that is still 4.1. amd64 architecture will follow within the
> >>> next few weeks. www.jggimi.homeip.net
> >> wow, amazing how much larger the KDE implementation is than all the others..
> >> almost 50% larger than gnome, and more than twice the size of XFCE..
> >
> > They'll all be larger than a non-GUI OpenBSD since regular OBSD doesn't
> > have all the cruft (compiled against extra libs) that a linux system
> > does. Any GUI then brings in far more libs than on linux.
>
> Can you explain that a bit?

I don't have hard data. However, a while ago (couple of months?) there
was a discussion on running on a small hard drive and one of the DDs
mentioned that Debian did tend to link against more libs than other
distros. I don't know which or why. So, if a typical Debian
system, before installation of a GUI, already has libs installed as
dependancies of base or other packages, then installing the GUI will not
require a re-download or re-install of those already-installed libs. A
typical OpenBSD install probably won't have those libs installed as part
of base and so will have to install them with the GUI. This is one
reason why a GUI install on Debian may take less addition room than on
OpenBSD.

The other reason is that Debian gives you more granularity. For
example, on OpenBSD there are two versions of Konqueror: one which is
for stand-alone use (doesn't depend on other KDE components) and a full
version which depends on lots of KDE stuff to give you all the possible
features of Konqueror. Compare this with all the packages on Debian
that relate to adding features to Konq.

If you look at the list of packages for OpenBSD (see the web site; I
don't have the URL handy), you'll see similar choices for several
packages. In fact, OpenBSD's pkg_add has the -i interactive option
whereby if you don't specify the version to install, it will prompt you.
You still have to refer to the package descriptions to get the details.

I hope its clear from this that I'm not complaining about anything, I'm
just observing the difference between the packaging philosophies.

Doug.


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