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Old 07-12-2008, 11:46 PM
Steve Lamb
 
Default IMAP is teh r0x0rz!

Nate Duehr wrote:

We really gotta get you over to Maildir someday, Steve. ;-)


Uh, no, thanks. I far prefer mbox's problems to maildir's.

Then you can back up mail directories with thinks like rdiff and not
pull in the whole mbox file into the backup again. Just the new mail.
(GRIN)


Huh? You do realize that diff does work on individiual lines in a file
so effectively no difference.



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Old 07-13-2008, 12:51 AM
Ron Johnson
 
Default IMAP is teh r0x0rz!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 07/12/08 18:46, Steve Lamb wrote:
> Nate Duehr wrote:
>> We really gotta get you over to Maildir someday, Steve. ;-)
>
> Uh, no, thanks. I far prefer mbox's problems to maildir's.

Maybe it's because I keep d-u messages is semi-annual history
folders so directories never get above 10,000 files, but what
problems do Maildirs have?

Needing to open many files instead of one?

I'll take that over an errant EOF wiping out a large chunk of a
directory.

Yes I can restore from backup, but
(a) the bug that caused the errant EOF is still there, and
(b) bringing back the back-up emails without introducing duplicates
or overwriting new mails is a hassle.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

"Kittens give Morbo gas. In lighter news, the city of New New
York is doomed."
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Old 07-13-2008, 09:14 AM
Steve Lamb
 
Default IMAP is teh r0x0rz!

Ron Johnson wrote:
> Maybe it's because I keep d-u messages is semi-annual history
> folders so directories never get above 10,000 files, but what
> problems do Maildirs have?

> Needing to open many files instead of one?

Needing to deal with that many files in any capacity, ever. I've
had the displeasure of being the administrator of a qmail setup that
would accept all mail (smtp-time rejection, what's that!?) then filter
then generate bounces to bogus email addresses in spam. Yeah, 50,000
maildir queues that take 20 minutes to stat are no fun. That pretty
much swore me off that idiotic idea.

> I'll take that over an errant EOF wiping out a large chunk of a
> directory.

Let's see. I've been using mbox since the early 90s with my first
Netcom account and elm. Or was it late 80s? Anyway, let's just say
about 15 years. In that time know how many EOF problems I've hit in all
of my mail in 15 years?

0.

I've had 2 hard drives take a nosedive on me in that time.

Or not to put too fine a point on it, opening up one maildir
directory with more than, say, 2000 messages in it will have wasted more
time than I have ever had wasted by "errant EOFs".

> Yes I can restore from backup, but
> (a) the bug that caused the errant EOF is still there, and

Or in my case, not. I guess you could say that the bug that caused
my hard-drive to eat itself is still there...

> (b) bringing back the back-up emails without introducing duplicates
> or overwriting new mails is a hassle.

Not so much any more. Pull out archives, merge, run "remove
duplicates" tool, done. But then, I haven't had to do that, either,
since when I lose my mail stores to hard drive failures I generally am
no concerned about the "merge" portion.


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Old 07-13-2008, 01:05 PM
Ron Johnson
 
Default IMAP is teh r0x0rz!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 07/13/08 04:14, Steve Lamb wrote:
> Ron Johnson wrote:
>> Maybe it's because I keep d-u messages is semi-annual history
>> folders so directories never get above 10,000 files, but what
>> problems do Maildirs have?
>
>> Needing to open many files instead of one?
>
> Needing to deal with that many files in any capacity, ever. I've
> had the displeasure of being the administrator of a qmail setup that
> would accept all mail (smtp-time rejection, what's that!?) then filter
> then generate bounces to bogus email addresses in spam. Yeah, 50,000
> maildir queues that take 20 minutes to stat are no fun. That pretty
> much swore me off that idiotic idea.

That's qmail's fault, not that of Maildir.

- --
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA

"Kittens give Morbo gas. In lighter news, the city of New New
York is doomed."
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e0MAoKFaMi86RqVJ4h89jAxq7oM9tn/B
=+cPj
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


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Old 07-13-2008, 08:28 PM
Andrew Sackville-West
 
Default IMAP is teh r0x0rz!

On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 08:31:06PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> On 07/10/08 12:38, Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 01:38:35PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote:
> >> On 07/09/08 13:26, Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
> >> [snip]
> >>> try a different MUA?
> >> This is why IMAP should be the standard mail store, not mboxes in
> >> "proprietary" locations.
> >
> > second that. THe convenience is incredible. Case in point:
> >
> > last month the family and I took a vacation. For several days we were
> > going to be at separate locations, so the kids would be without my
> > laptop (which carries separate accounts for each of them, I am the
> > best dad in the world!).
>
> Well, no, because I am. Anyway...

;-)

>
> Creating individual accounts for everyone on a computer *should* be
> nothing to crow about. Not doing it should be a reason the Geek
> Police takes your computer away from you.

didn't mean to crow about that... I was attempting to dissuade the
potential raft of "OMG, I hope you kids have separate accounts..."
responses. Oh well.

A
 
Old 07-13-2008, 09:06 PM
Steve Lamb
 
Default IMAP is teh r0x0rz!

My apologies to Ron, I slapped reply and not reply-to-all and trim.

Ron Johnson wrote:
> That's qmail's fault, not that of Maildir.

No, that is a design problem in Maildir. Granted I wouldn't want my MTAs
using a flat file for all its traffic, it makes no sense there for how short
lived messages should be. But it exposes the severe flaw that large
directories are next to impossible to deal with easily.

Right now my trash is 2000 messages at 14Mb. 50,000 messages would be
~350Mb. Certainly doesn't take me 20 minutes to begin to work with a 350Mb
flat file. Hell, at work I've opened larger flat files over the network in
shorter time.
 
Old 07-17-2008, 02:01 PM
Michelle Konzack
 
Default IMAP is teh r0x0rz!

Am 2008-07-13 14:06:51, schrieb Steve Lamb:
> My apologies to Ron, I slapped reply and not reply-to-all and trim.
>
> Ron Johnson wrote:
> > That's qmail's fault, not that of Maildir.
>
> No, that is a design problem in Maildir. Granted I wouldn't want my MTAs

I do not believe it, since I am admin a Courier-Imap Server with 73.000
users ith 2.8 million legitim messages and 8 million spams per day.

I would never use mbox for such stuff... and of course, a mailque und
200.000 is read in in less then 2 minutes... Using a Quad Opteron 880
with 32 GByte of memory.

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
+49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
+33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)
 
Old 07-18-2008, 04:04 PM
"Steve C. Lamb"
 
Default IMAP is teh r0x0rz!

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 04:01:31PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> I do not believe it, since I am admin a Courier-Imap Server with 73.000
> users ith 2.8 million legitim messages and 8 million spams per day.

And a d-u troll.

> I would never use mbox for such stuff... and of course, a mailque und
> 200.000 is read in in less then 2 minutes... Using a Quad Opteron 880
> with 32 GByte of memory.

Yes, everyone has one of those on their desktop. Begone.

--
Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
-------------------------------+---------------------------------------------


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Old 07-18-2008, 11:03 PM
Michelle Konzack
 
Default IMAP is teh r0x0rz!

Am 2008-07-18 12:04:35, schrieb Steve C. Lamb:
> On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 04:01:31PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> > I do not believe it, since I am admin a Courier-Imap Server with 73.000
> > users ith 2.8 million legitim messages and 8 million spams per day.
>
> And a d-u troll.
>
> > I would never use mbox for such stuff... and of course, a mailque und
> > 200.000 is read in in less then 2 minutes... Using a Quad Opteron 880
> > with 32 GByte of memory.
>
> Yes, everyone has one of those on their desktop. Begone.

It is only a small Development Station... ;-) I have seen, that the new
Phenom are less expensive and have now several times more power...

And unfortunately I am very jealous since I know to many peoples using
such machines...

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
+49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
+33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)
 

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