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Old 06-18-2008, 01:29 AM
Michelle Konzack
 
Default CAD software for PCB engineering and routing

Hello,

I am using "electic" and "geda" but those programs are crap and you can
not design real PCBs for it. Even my 18 years old MS-DOS software works
better.

So, my requirements are:

1) PCB-Layouts up to Extended ATX and 18x11"
2) Only ARM and MIPS CPU's (yeah, no i386, sparc powerpc)
3) double sided
4) double layer
5) autorouter
6) design template per chip including
auto placing of capacitors and such
x)
y)
z)
997) Export/Import all common formats
998) Must definitivly work with Debian GNU/Linux
999) Not expensive!

I have already VariCAD runing on a Dual "Opteron 280" with 16 GByte of
memory plus some 300 GByte SCA-Drives on a ICP Raid-5 and I do not need
a second program of this caliber.

Any recomandtions?

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
+49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
+33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)
 
Old 06-18-2008, 05:24 PM
al davis
 
Default CAD software for PCB engineering and routing

On Tuesday 17 June 2008, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> I am using *********** but those programs are crap
> and you *can not ********. *Even my 18 years
> old MS-DOS software works better.
>
> So, my requirements are:
>
> 1) *PCB-Layouts up to Extended ATX and 18x11"
> 2) *Only ARM and MIPS CPU's (yeah, no i386, sparc powerpc)
> 3) *double sided
> 4) *double layer
> 5) *autorouter
> 6) *design template per chip including
> * * auto placing of capacitors and such
> x)
> y)
> z)
> 997) *Export/Import all common formats
> 998) *Must definitivly work with Debian GNU/Linux
> 999) *Not expensive!
>
> I have already VariCAD runing on a Dual "Opteron 280" with
> *16 GByte *of memory plus some 300 GByte SCA-Drives on a ICP
> Raid-5 and I do not *need a second program of this caliber.
>
> Any recomandtions?

Yes. Be more respectful of people who are trying to help you.

You say "not expensive" indicating your willingness to pay
something. How about paying for improvements you want?

You say you are a system administrator, EE, and consultant. How
about providing some services to a project you would like to
see improved?

You say "are crap". How about some detailed info on what is
wrong and how it can be made better?

The projects you mention are starved for resources, as are many
free software projects. The subtleties go a long way.

In most significant free software projects, the authors are
fully aware of the problems, but lack the resources to do much
about it.

You have been here a while, and certainly must know how free
software works. How about taking on one of the problems
yourself, solving it, and contributing the solution? Just one
will go a long way.



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Old 06-18-2008, 06:22 PM
Michelle Konzack
 
Default CAD software for PCB engineering and routing

Am 2008-06-18 13:24:06, schrieb al davis:
> Yes. Be more respectful of people who are trying to help you.

I have gotten no reponse from Developers and others...

> You say "not expensive" indicating your willingness to pay
> something. How about paying for improvements you want?

I have payed arround 20.000 Euro for I High-Performance CAD program
which support simulations in real-time... I used it to construct my
Bio-Fuel-Raffinnerie... Even it is complex, it is intuitiv!

I can not say electric or "geda" are "intuitiv" the use of the interface
is horribel...

> You say you are a system administrator, EE, and consultant. How
> about providing some services to a project you would like to
> see improved?

I am developer and have my own enterprise (IT), working currently arround
16 hours a day and I am in creation of a NEW Enterprise in Morocco (Bio-
Fuel) which went hit by three bombs on 2008-01-01 because "je deranger
les intrets francaise"...

I have not the time to bother with only half working software...

> The projects you mention are starved for resources, as are many
> free software projects. The subtleties go a long way.

My "electronic business" is strted with arround 4000 Euro and recently I
have bought on eBay a used InfraRed Welding system which cost normaly
2000 Euro... and yes, I have no money anymore...

I am searching for a possibility to leave France as fast as possibel, but
since the french authorities (Prefecture de Strasbourg) has confiscated
my Passport... I have MANY problems...

The frenchies ar specialists to create problems...
(and NO, I am not french)

> You have been here a while, and certainly must know how free
> software works. How about taking on one of the problems
> yourself, solving it, and contributing the solution? Just one
> will go a long way.

I need a software FAST!

Even if I would spend 2000 Euro to a OSS developer, he/she would not
develop a solution in a timeframe I need. And since I have NO time, I
already outsourcing jobs over <http://www.getacoder.com/>.

I give a fsck on "WHO is working for me" because things must be done.

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
+49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
+33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)
 
Old 06-18-2008, 06:35 PM
 
Default CAD software for PCB engineering and routing

> Am 2008-06-18 13:24:06, schrieb al davis:
>> Yes. Be more respectful of people who are trying to help you.
>
> I have gotten no reponse from Developers and others...
>
>> You say "not expensive" indicating your willingness to pay
>> something. How about paying for improvements you want?
>
> I have payed arround 20.000 Euro for I High-Performance CAD program
> which support simulations in real-time... I used it to construct my
> Bio-Fuel-Raffinnerie... Even it is complex, it is intuitiv!
>
> I can not say electric or "geda" are "intuitiv" the use of the interface
> is horribel...
>
>> You say you are a system administrator, EE, and consultant. How
>> about providing some services to a project you would like to
>> see improved?
>
> I am developer and have my own enterprise (IT), working currently arround
> 16 hours a day and I am in creation of a NEW Enterprise in Morocco (Bio-
> Fuel) which went hit by three bombs on 2008-01-01 because "je deranger
> les intrets francaise"...
>
> I have not the time to bother with only half working software...
>
>> The projects you mention are starved for resources, as are many
>> free software projects. The subtleties go a long way.
>
> My "electronic business" is strted with arround 4000 Euro and recently I
> have bought on eBay a used InfraRed Welding system which cost normaly
> 2000 Euro... and yes, I have no money anymore...
>
> I am searching for a possibility to leave France as fast as possibel, but
> since the french authorities (Prefecture de Strasbourg) has confiscated
> my Passport... I have MANY problems...
>
> The frenchies ar specialists to create problems...
> (and NO, I am not french)
>
>> You have been here a while, and certainly must know how free
>> software works. How about taking on one of the problems
>> yourself, solving it, and contributing the solution? Just one
>> will go a long way.
>
> I need a software FAST!
>
> Even if I would spend 2000 Euro to a OSS developer, he/she would not
> develop a solution in a timeframe I need. And since I have NO time, I
> already outsourcing jobs over <http://www.getacoder.com/>.
>
> I give a fsck on "WHO is working for me" because things must be done.
>
> Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
> Michelle Konzack
> Systemadministrator
> 24V Electronic Engineer
> Tamay Dogan Network
> Debian GNU/Linux Consultant
>
>
> --
> Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
> ##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
> Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
> +49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
> +33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)

Michelle
My (no defunct) company went through a similar search as you. What we
found was some very good and very expensive software, primarily ported to
Suns, and some reasonably good and reasonably inexpensive software,
unfortunately ported to XP. Perhaps others can suggest something that
combines the XP-like cost with (some of the) UNIX-like features. Due to
cost reasons we ended up with the XP stuff. Hope you find something that
matches your needs.
Larry
>



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Old 06-18-2008, 10:22 PM
al davis
 
Default CAD software for PCB engineering and routing

On Wednesday 18 June 2008, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> Am 2008-06-18 13:24:06, schrieb al davis:
> > Yes. Be more respectful of people who are trying to help
> > you.
>
> I have gotten no reponse from Developers and others...

Did you ask?

You have been on this here list long enough to know what kind of
response you will get.

> > You say "not expensive" indicating your willingness to pay
> > something. How about paying for improvements you want?
>
> I have payed arround 20.000 Euro for I High-Performance
> CAD program which support simulations in real-time... I
> used it to construct my Bio-Fuel-Raffinnerie... Even it
> is complex, it is intuitiv!
>
> I can not say electric or "geda" are "intuitiv" the use of
> the interface is horribel...

You would be amazed at how far 20.000 Euro goes to support a
free software project. It might be enough to pay for a
complete redo of the user interface, to exactly what you want.

>
> > You say you are a system administrator, EE, and consultant.
> > How about providing some services to a project you would
> > like to see improved?
>
> I am developer and have my own enterprise (IT), working
> currently arround 16 hours a day and I am in creation of a
> NEW Enterprise in Morocco (Bio- Fuel) which went hit by three
> bombs on 2008-01-01 because "je deranger les intrets
> francaise"...
>
> I have not the time to bother with only half working
> software...

You must realize that all software was only half working at some
time. For commercial software, investors keep it going past
this stage. For free software, the investors are the
developers themselves, and the users that are willing to put up
with it, and carry it through.

There's also the factor of "which half", and where is it going.

The zero-cost non-free software gets its funding from investors,
and carefully chooses "which half" to make you buy something
bigger.

Another point on "half working" software is that sometimes there
are multiple competing projects, each "half working" but a
different half. If only they would get together......

> I need a software FAST!
>
> Even if I would spend 2000 Euro to a OSS developer, he/she
> would not develop a solution in a timeframe I need. And
> since I have NO time, I already outsourcing jobs over
> <http://www.getacoder.com/>.
>
> I give a fsck on "WHO is working for me" because things must
> be done.

I agree that there are times when we must put idealism aside to
get something done. Some projects can only be done in a
commercial environment, with big investors. I understand your
decision here.

You just might need to use Windoze here .. Pads, perhaps???

Even so, with wishful thinking ... a little participation in
the free project goes a long way, if it is done
constructively. "I would really like to use your xxxxx, but
because of (some detail) I feel forced to use yyyyy. It's so
close, but....."

Some commercial products cooperate with Free/open-source
software. Some try to undermine it. It is important to know
the difference. The zero-cost crippled demos undermine it.
There are big packages that use Free/open-source commodity
packages and provide added value at a price. They support it,
especially if they help fund it.

Sorry if I sound overbearing here .. I am working on a project
(very close to geda) which is now "half working" and realize
how little things like this impact progress on a project.


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Old 06-20-2008, 04:12 PM
Michelle Konzack
 
Default CAD software for PCB engineering and routing

Hello Larry,

Am 2008-06-18 11:35:04, schrieb owens@peak.org:
> Michelle
> My (no defunct) company went through a similar search as you. What we
> found was some very good and very expensive software, primarily ported to
> Suns, and some reasonably good and reasonably inexpensive software,
> unfortunately ported to XP. Perhaps others can suggest something that
> combines the XP-like cost with (some of the) UNIX-like features. Due to
> cost reasons we ended up with the XP stuff. Hope you find something that
> matches your needs.
> Larry

My VariCAD is runnin on Debian and there is nothing which beat it.
Handling, Usability, Performance and Price <SIGH> 20.000 Euro.

Do you mean a Layout-Software for PCBs?
What "expensive" and "less expensive" was it?

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
+49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
+33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)
 
Old 06-20-2008, 05:14 PM
"Dotan Cohen"
 
Default CAD software for PCB engineering and routing

2008/6/18 <owens@peak.org>:
> My (no defunct) company went through a similar search as you. What we
> found was some very good and very expensive software, primarily ported to
> Suns, and some reasonably good and reasonably inexpensive software,
> unfortunately ported to XP. Perhaps others can suggest something that
> combines the XP-like cost with (some of the) UNIX-like features. Due to
> cost reasons we ended up with the XP stuff. Hope you find something that
> matches your needs.
> Larry

Did you write to the companies that provide the cheaper, XP-based
solutions and tell them that you are interested in buying their
software, but that you need a native Linux version? If we don't get
off our butts and tell the companies that we exist, then we have no
basis to complain when there is no suitable software available for
Linux.

To FOSS developers: Solidworks is the de-facto CAD software used in my
country. Everybody uses it. I will donate to any project TWICE THE
COST of a Solidworks license that develops and maintains a
Solidworks-compatible alternative, for as long as I'm using the
software. Solidworks-compatible means that I develop and can exchange
documents with other Solidworks users with NO EXCUSES. I'm certain
that you will find many other idiots like me who would be willing to
donate similar sums.

In the meantime, I write to Solid and request them to release a Linux
version. I'm currently running an older version in VirtualBox because
I have no choice (well, I _could_ run XP).

Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
 
Old 06-20-2008, 05:30 PM
 
Default CAD software for PCB engineering and routing

> Hello Larry,
>
> Am 2008-06-18 11:35:04, schrieb owens@peak.org:
>> Michelle
>> My (no defunct) company went through a similar search as you. What we
>> found was some very good and very expensive software, primarily ported
>> to
>> Suns, and some reasonably good and reasonably inexpensive software,
>> unfortunately ported to XP. Perhaps others can suggest something that
>> combines the XP-like cost with (some of the) UNIX-like features. Due to
>> cost reasons we ended up with the XP stuff. Hope you find something
>> that
>> matches your needs.
>> Larry
>
> My VariCAD is runnin on Debian and there is nothing which beat it.
> Handling, Usability, Performance and Price <SIGH> 20.000 Euro.
>
> Do you mean a Layout-Software for PCBs?
> What "expensive" and "less expensive" was it?
>
> Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
> Michelle Konzack
> Systemadministrator
> 24V Electronic Engineer
> Tamay Dogan Network
> Debian GNU/Linux Consultant

Michelle
The software I used included a schematic capture package, and a PCB layout
package. As do most layout packages this one required some human input
for the layout rules (line widths, hole sizes, etc.) and for routing in
case the built-in algorithm got "stumped". The output of the PCB layout
package was a file in standard (e.g. Gerber) format that one could send to
someone to make the boards themselves. The schematic package was called
Circuit Maker and the companion PCB board layout package was called
TraxMaker. The packages at that time were relatively inexpensive (e.g.
several hundred US dollars) and only ran on XP. I believe both packages
and the (Austrailian) company that developed them were bought by someone
else but some Googling will tell you the new names if you are interested.
Again these were more for boards that had perhaps up to a few hundred
components and for relatively small boards--"perfect" for a small company
doing in-house layout but out-house board manufacture.
Larry
P.S. The Sun packages were Mentor Graphics' and VERY complex and VERY
expensive (several tens of thousand US dollars as I recall). These are
used, for example, by the PC motherboard companies (multilayer boards,
plated-through holes, vias, etc.)
>
>
> --
> Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
> ##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
> Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
> +49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
> +33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)
>



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Old 06-20-2008, 05:36 PM
 
Default CAD software for PCB engineering and routing

> 2008/6/18 <owens@peak.org>:
>> My (no defunct) company went through a similar search as you. What we
>> found was some very good and very expensive software, primarily ported
>> to
>> Suns, and some reasonably good and reasonably inexpensive software,
>> unfortunately ported to XP. Perhaps others can suggest something that
>> combines the XP-like cost with (some of the) UNIX-like features. Due to
>> cost reasons we ended up with the XP stuff. Hope you find something
>> that
>> matches your needs.
>> Larry
>
> Did you write to the companies that provide the cheaper, XP-based
> solutions and tell them that you are interested in buying their
> software, but that you need a native Linux version? If we don't get
> off our butts and tell the companies that we exist, then we have no
> basis to complain when there is no suitable software available for
> Linux.
>
> To FOSS developers: Solidworks is the de-facto CAD software used in my
> country. Everybody uses it. I will donate to any project TWICE THE
> COST of a Solidworks license that develops and maintains a
> Solidworks-compatible alternative, for as long as I'm using the
> software. Solidworks-compatible means that I develop and can exchange
> documents with other Solidworks users with NO EXCUSES. I'm certain
> that you will find many other idiots like me who would be willing to
> donate similar sums.
>
> In the meantime, I write to Solid and request them to release a Linux
> version. I'm currently running an older version in VirtualBox because
> I have no choice (well, I _could_ run XP).
>
> Dotan Cohen
>
> http://what-is-what.com
> http://gibberish.co.il
> ?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-?-*-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת
>
> A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

Dotan
I think the OP is looking for a PCB CAD package. If I recall neither
Solidworks nor VariCAD does this.
Larry
>



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Old 06-20-2008, 05:56 PM
 
Default CAD software for PCB engineering and routing

> Hello Larry,
>
> Am 2008-06-18 11:35:04, schrieb owens@peak.org:
>> Michelle
>> My (no defunct) company went through a similar search as you. What we
>> found was some very good and very expensive software, primarily ported
>> to
>> Suns, and some reasonably good and reasonably inexpensive software,
>> unfortunately ported to XP. Perhaps others can suggest something that
>> combines the XP-like cost with (some of the) UNIX-like features. Due to
>> cost reasons we ended up with the XP stuff. Hope you find something
>> that
>> matches your needs.
>> Larry
>
> My VariCAD is runnin on Debian and there is nothing which beat it.
> Handling, Usability, Performance and Price <SIGH> 20.000 Euro.
>
> Do you mean a Layout-Software for PCBs?
> What "expensive" and "less expensive" was it?
>
> Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
> Michelle Konzack
> Systemadministrator
> 24V Electronic Engineer
> Tamay Dogan Network
> Debian GNU/Linux Consultant
Michelle
Yes I assume your reference to PCBs was Printed Circuit Boards (yes?). If
so I have another approach, a "hybrid" solution used by many small to
medium size companies, especially those that don't do PCB layout on a
regular basis and/or do not do the actual PCB fabrication. Contact a PCB
company that does board layout and fabrication to do just the layout part
(this is the most labor-intensive part of the process). Tell them you
wish to do the schematic capture part and they will likely furnish you (or
allow access to) their PCB software. In this manner you can do the
capture (and design rules check and perhaps simulation, each of which is
usually "built-in" to the capture package) and they can do the layout and
fabrication.
Larry
>
>
> --
> Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
> ##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
> Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
> +49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
> +33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)
>



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