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Andrew Sackville-West 06-14-2008 03:18 PM

Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
 
On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 01:31:07PM +0100, Peter Tynan wrote:
> I noted from a recent discussion on this list that iceweasel 3.0-rc2
> has been made available in Sid and I was wondering what the plans are
> for support of the gopher protocol in Iceweasel 3? I ask this because
> support for the gopher protocol has been pulled from the core of
> FireFox 3 and I was hoping that Debian are not going to make the same
> (IMHO) mistake.

well, Debian's Iceweasel is simply a rebranded Firefox. I would be
shocked if debian put back in core functionality that mozilla took
out...

A

"Peter Tynan" 06-14-2008 03:42 PM

Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
 
2008/6/14 Andrew Sackville-West <andrew@farwestbilliards.com>:
> On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 01:31:07PM +0100, Peter Tynan wrote:
>> I noted from a recent discussion on this list that iceweasel 3.0-rc2
>> has been made available in Sid and I was wondering what the plans are
>> for support of the gopher protocol in Iceweasel 3? I ask this because
>> support for the gopher protocol has been pulled from the core of
>> FireFox 3 and I was hoping that Debian are not going to make the same
>> (IMHO) mistake.
>
> well, Debian's Iceweasel is simply a rebranded Firefox. I would be
> shocked if debian put back in core functionality that mozilla took
> out...
>
> A
>

I was under the impression that although Iceweasel started off as a
simple rebranding project that the maintainers had greater ambitions
and that they already made changes to the source that have nothing to
do with the branding - am I wrong?

Iceweasel (and FireFox) prior to version 3 despite a few bugs were
the most convenient GUI gopher browser available and the loss of
gopher support would be a big blow for gopher users.


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Andrew Sackville-West 06-14-2008 04:05 PM

Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
 
On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 04:42:08PM +0100, Peter Tynan wrote:
> 2008/6/14 Andrew Sackville-West <andrew@farwestbilliards.com>:
> > On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 01:31:07PM +0100, Peter Tynan wrote:
> >> I noted from a recent discussion on this list that iceweasel 3.0-rc2
> >> has been made available in Sid and I was wondering what the plans are
> >> for support of the gopher protocol in Iceweasel 3? I ask this because
> >> support for the gopher protocol has been pulled from the core of
> >> FireFox 3 and I was hoping that Debian are not going to make the same
> >> (IMHO) mistake.
> >
> > well, Debian's Iceweasel is simply a rebranded Firefox. I would be
> > shocked if debian put back in core functionality that mozilla took
> > out...

>
> I was under the impression that although Iceweasel started off as a
> simple rebranding project that the maintainers had greater ambitions
> and that they already made changes to the source that have nothing to
> do with the branding - am I wrong?

hmmm... I don't know that. You could be right, though a moderately
quick google and reviewing the debian changelogs suggests that it is
largely just rebranding.

>
> Iceweasel (and FireFox) prior to version 3 despite a few bugs were
> the most convenient GUI gopher browser available and the loss of
> gopher support would be a big blow for gopher users.

that would be a problem.

A

Joey Hess 06-14-2008 04:19 PM

Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
 
Peter Tynan wrote:
> I was under the impression that although Iceweasel started off as a
> simple rebranding project that the maintainers had greater ambitions
> and that they already made changes to the source that have nothing to
> do with the branding - am I wrong?

So, let’s dig into our firefox_2.0~rc1+dfsg-1.diff.gz:

* Changes to disable application upgrade (we want that to happen through apt-get) and change some other default preferences,
* Changes to fix “make distclean” so that it really cleans the build directory,
* Change not to build the “mangle” utility,
* Change not to call netstat to generate entropy, which is useless on linux,
* Changes to make Firefox® build and work on architectures such as hppa, mips, mips64, m68k, ia64, sparc64, alpha, and arm, which the Mozilla® guys don’t seem to care much for,
* Change to add a preference directory so that users can put their set of customized preferences in /etc/firefox/pref,
* Change to allow to build flat chrome without the zip utility,
* Change to allow to use system library for myspell, instead of statically linking the bundled one,
* Changes to allow to build s390 binaries on s390x host with s390 toolchain (same applies with x86 binaries on amd64 host with x86 toolchain),
* Changes to work around bugs with the hidden visibility pragma on gcc,
* Changes to make the pango backend actually build correctly,
* Changes to avoid some error messages while trying to create Makefiles from inexistant Makefile.in’s,
* Change to install in /usr/lib/firefox instead of /usr/lib/firefox-x.y,
* Change not to build useless chromelist.txt files,
* Changes to make helper applications with parameters work,
* Changes to allow builds against GTK 2.8,
* Changes to work around an Xrender bug,
* Changes to make the Gecko/yymmdddd string taken from preferences instead of being half-hard-coded (you could change it with preferences, but it would still be set to the hard-coded value at start time ; and you could change it again with preferences…),
* Change to allow mice extra buttons to act as something else than a left button,
* Change to allow to build with -Wl,–as-needed to avoid linking against a whole lot of useless libraries, without losing the link on libxpcom.so which is required by some extensions’ components,
* Changes not to shlibsign the NSS modules at build time, since we’re stripping the binaries afterwards, thus breaking the signature. We do build the signatures later, within the maintainer scripts.

That’s not that many changes, and most of them were taken from either some
Mozilla® CVS trunk or the Mozilla® Bugzilla™. And most of those that were
not taken from there have been sent, except those that really don’t make
much sense outside Debian.

-- Mike Hommey <http://glandium.org/blog/?p=97>

Overall, Ubuntu applies the same set of patches as Debian, plus some
more.
[...]
So, while I’m at it, here is an exhaustive list of the bugs where we took
or sent the patches that are applied to Iceweasel: #51429, #161826, #252033,
#258429, #273524, #287150, #289394, #294879, #307168, #307418, #314927,
#319012, #322806, #323114, #325148, #326245, #330628, #331781, #331785,
#331818, #333289, #333308, #343953, #345077, #345079, #345080, #345413.

-- Mike Hommey <http://glandium.org/blog/?p=99>

That was two years ago, but I don't believe things have significantly
changed. Simply comparing the size of the diffs suggests that
the overall level of patching has decreased between 2.0 and 3.0:

-rw-rw-r-- 2 dak debadmin 182K Apr 30 01:47 iceweasel_2.0.0.14-0etch1.diff.gz
-rw-rw-r-- 2 dak debadmin 154K Jun 9 05:02 iceweasel_3.0~rc2-1.diff.gz

You'll find much more and larger patches in things like the
kernel, glibc, and OOo than you will in our forced "fork" of iceweasel.

-rw-rw-r-- 2 dak debadmin 4.1M Jun 12 10:47 linux-2.6_2.6.25-5.diff.gz
-rw-rw-r-- 2 dak debadmin 707K Jun 2 19:32 glibc_2.7-12.diff.gz
-rw-rw-r-- 2 dak debadmin 82M Jun 1 17:02 openoffice.org_2.4.1~rc2-1.diff.gz

--
see shy jo

"Peter Tynan" 06-14-2008 04:43 PM

Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
 
2008/6/14 Andrew Sackville-West <andrew@farwestbilliards.com>:
> On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 04:42:08PM +0100, Peter Tynan wrote:
>>
>> Iceweasel (and FireFox) prior to version 3 despite a few bugs were
>> the most convenient GUI gopher browser available and the loss of
>> gopher support would be a big blow for gopher users.
>
> that would be a problem.
>
> A
>

Just to summarise the problems - Iceweasel (and FireFox) is the only
"integrated" GUI gopher browser, most other gopher browsers just show
the gopher menu tree and in some cases plain text documents with
Iceweasel I can view images, html documents, flash files, sound files
etc (assuming I have the appropriate plug-in) where as other gopher
browsers would have to open another application, also other GUI gopher
browsers have suffered from a lack of development in recent years
(mainly (IMHO) because Iceweasel/FireFox did the job so well) which
means they can look quite dated and lack a certain user friendliness
(as far as I know the console gopher client -is the only dedicated
gopher client still under active development).

Peter


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Andrew Sackville-West 06-14-2008 05:31 PM

Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
 
On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 05:43:19PM +0100, Peter Tynan wrote:
> 2008/6/14 Andrew Sackville-West <andrew@farwestbilliards.com>:
> > On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 04:42:08PM +0100, Peter Tynan wrote:
> >>
> >> Iceweasel (and FireFox) prior to version 3 despite a few bugs were
> >> the most convenient GUI gopher browser available and the loss of
> >> gopher support would be a big blow for gopher users.
> >
> > that would be a problem.
...
>
> Just to summarise the problems - Iceweasel (and FireFox) is the only
> "integrated" GUI gopher browser, most other gopher browsers just show
> the gopher menu tree and in some cases plain text documents with
> Iceweasel I can view images, html documents, flash files, sound files
> etc (assuming I have the appropriate plug-in) where as other gopher
> browsers would have to open another application, also other GUI gopher
> browsers have suffered from a lack of development in recent years
> (mainly (IMHO) because Iceweasel/FireFox did the job so well) which
> means they can look quite dated and lack a certain user friendliness
> (as far as I know the console gopher client -is the only dedicated
> gopher client still under active development).

so for me, this is an interesting situation. But I don't use
gopher. For you it must be downright annoying.

Here's how it's interesting. Firefox provided a full-blown modern
gopher browser that essentially killed the other gui gopher browsers
by being vastly superior. Now firefox has dropped gopher support. I
think that will do one of two things: 1) largely kill what remains of
gopher, 2) spur development of gui gopher browsers that have
languished. I would hope for the second option. I don't think it
serves anyone to have a single dominant player for a given
protocol. If the gopher protocol still has life in it (and I gather
that it does), then the community will be better served by having
motivation to pick up development of the other browsers, or perhaps
incorporate better gopher support into the other web browsers.

.02

A

Paul Cartwright 06-14-2008 05:44 PM

Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
 
On Sat June 14 2008, Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
> so for me, this is an interesting situation. But I don't use
> gopher. For you it must be downright annoying.
>
> Here's how it's interesting. Firefox provided a full-blown modern
> gopher browser that essentially killed the other gui gopher browsers
> by being vastly superior. Now firefox has dropped gopher support. I
> think that will do one of two things: 1) largely kill what remains of
> gopher, 2) spur development of gui gopher browsers that have
> languished. I would hope for the second option. I don't think it
> serves anyone to have a single dominant player for a given
> protocol. If the gopher protocol still has life in it (and I gather
> that it does), then the community will be better served by having
> motivation to pick up development of the other browsers, or perhaps
> incorporate better gopher support into the other web browsers.

a blast from the past:)
http://seanm.ca/mosaic/
Development of Mosaic stopped in 1996 (official date was January 7th 1997). I
have updated Mosaic so it will compile on a modern Linux system. I also added
support for the gopher info tag.

I remember using Mosaix for gopher sites, when MY COMPANY blocked us from
using http sites, but they DIDN'T block gopher... I learned how to use
gopher!


--
Paul Cartwright
Registered Linux user # 367800
Registered Ubuntu User #12459


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"Peter Tynan" 06-14-2008 05:48 PM

Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
 
2008/6/14 Andrew Sackville-West <andrew@farwestbilliards.com>:
> If the gopher protocol still has life in it (and I gather
> that it does), then the community will be better served by having
> motivation to pick up development of the other browsers, or perhaps
> incorporate better gopher support into the other web browsers.
>
> .02
>
> A

er... probably true but it will still be irritating when I have to
switch programs just because the site I want to view is gopher (I hate
having lots of windows open) - now where do I post to request that
xgopher is be reinstated in the repositories :-/

Peter


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"Koh Choon Lin" 06-14-2008 07:56 PM

Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
 
>> If the gopher protocol still has life in it (and I gather
>> that it does), then the community will be better served by having
>> motivation to pick up development of the other browsers, or perhaps
>> incorporate better gopher support into the other web browsers.

Just curious, what advantage does Gopher offers over other protocols?


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Koh Choon Lin


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Tzafrir Cohen 06-14-2008 09:50 PM

Iceweasel 3 and gopher?
 
On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 01:31:07PM +0100, Peter Tynan wrote:
> I noted from a recent discussion on this list that iceweasel 3.0-rc2
> has been made available in Sid and I was wondering what the plans are
> for support of the gopher protocol in Iceweasel 3? I ask this because
> support for the gopher protocol has been pulled from the core of
> FireFox 3 and I was hoping that Debian are not going to make the same
> (IMHO) mistake.

Any extension to add support for this protocol?

E.g. http://gopher.floodgap.com/overbite/ .

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