Has gotten worse, I am afraid.

OK, the panel crashes are my fault, apparently from kde3 applets I am using.
They did give such problems in the very old kde4 versions but have been just
fine until today's upgrade. Also, that 0,-54 position of the panel is now
showing up and maybe causing crashes as well. I will deal with that by hand,
I suppose.

Luckily, by /opt/kde3.5 is still around and I and other family users can run
this without a hitch. This is really necessary when the new one is so
volatile, almost snapshots rather than "milestones" or upgrades.

I also tried the new kmail 4.074 which is actually based on an older version
that the kde3.5.6! Looks fine but since it did not eat all the settings and
canceled the sessions, I tried to reenter them. The configure kmail dialog is
empty. So I removed kmail4.074 and my 3.5 kmail is still doing the job. I
reentered the session info there or could have copied it from .kde. This one
was yet not ready to post.

Running kde3 again, it simply looks much nicer. Icon sizes and text labels
work better, overall panel composition (ignoring the funny placements of the
last couple of days) looks nicer. And the desktop functionality such as
creating new device icons (and having them function) is still not there in
kde4. All the resizing, rotations and other stuff is of limited value if one
cannot get icon sizes and text labels to coordinate nicely.


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Hi,

Tuesday 27 May 2008, David Baron ra:
> OK, the panel crashes are my fault, apparently from kde3 applets I am
> using. They did give such problems in the very old kde4 versions but have
> been just fine until today's upgrade. Also, that 0,-54 position of the
> panel is now showing up and maybe causing crashes as well. I will deal with
> that by hand, I suppose.
That might have be bad interaction of later kdelibs and earlier plasma.
kdebase-workspace 4.0.80 has just been accepted, please retest tomorrow.
However, still plasma is still sort of sensitive, treat it gently.

> Luckily, by /opt/kde3.5 is still around and I and other family users can
> run this without a hitch. This is really necessary when the new one is so
> volatile, almost snapshots rather than "milestones" or upgrades.
It's a milestone (KDE 4.1 Beta 1) expect plasma.

> I also tried the new kmail 4.074 which is actually based on an older
> version that the kde3.5.6! Looks fine but since it did not eat all the
> settings and canceled the sessions, I tried to reenter them. The configure
> kmail dialog is empty.
Is empty how? No settings imported? You're right. However, in fact it's
possible to migrate almost all settings from KDE3 kmail with some minor manual
intervention. I don't know why you think kmail 4.0.74 is based on the old
kmail from KDE3, because it actually has all the features and layout of kmail
3.5.9. What is more, current kmail4 is darn stable and overall I'm very very
positively surprised by it's current state (not a single crash on my me,
noticed just one real bug). It has such solid feel.

> Running kde3 again, it simply looks much nicer. Icon sizes and text labels
> work better, overall panel composition (ignoring the funny placements of
> the last couple of days) looks nicer. And the desktop functionality such as
> creating new device icons (and having them function) is still not there in
> kde4. All the resizing, rotations and other stuff is of limited value if
> one cannot get icon sizes and text labels to coordinate nicely.
Well, plasma dashboard is completely different concept than conventional
desktop. You can add a Folder View widget to simulate the old desktop. Your
criticism about device icons might be right (drag and drop from dolphin does
not work), but please post it to more general upstream KDE list or file a
wishlist bug to upstream BTS.

--
Modestas Vainius <modestas@vainius.eu>

On Tuesday 27 May 2008 22:45:25 Modestas Vainius wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Tuesday 27 May 2008, David Baron ra:
> > OK, the panel crashes are my fault, apparently from kde3 applets I am
> > using. They did give such problems in the very old kde4 versions but have
> > been just fine until today's upgrade. Also, that 0,-54 position of the
> > panel is now showing up and maybe causing crashes as well. I will deal
> > with that by hand, I suppose.
>
> That might have be bad interaction of later kdelibs and earlier plasma.
> kdebase-workspace 4.0.80 has just been accepted, please retest tomorrow.
> However, still plasma is still sort of sensitive, treat it gently.
Will give that a try.
>
> > Luckily, by /opt/kde3.5 is still around and I and other family users can
> > run this without a hitch. This is really necessary when the new one is so
> > volatile, almost snapshots rather than "milestones" or upgrades.
>
> It's a milestone (KDE 4.1 Beta 1) expect plasma.
But ... plasma is central! Well, in a pinch, kicker will in fact run just fine
(and in my dual set up, I need to exclude it from the session startup!)
>
> > I also tried the new kmail 4.074 which is actually based on an older
> > version that the kde3.5.6! Looks fine but since it did not eat all the
> > settings and canceled the sessions, I tried to reenter them. The
> > configure kmail dialog is empty.
>
> Is empty how? No settings imported? You're right. However, in fact it's
> possible to migrate almost all settings from KDE3 kmail with some minor
> manual intervention. I don't know why you think kmail 4.0.74 is based on
> the old kmail from KDE3, because it actually has all the features and
> layout of kmail 3.5.9. What is more, current kmail4 is darn stable and
> overall I'm very very positively surprised by it's current state (not a
> single crash on my me, noticed just one real bug). It has such solid feel.
3.5.6 has kmail 1.9.6
4.074 has kmail 1.9.5
Of course these numbers might be entirely meaningless.
4.074 deleted the receive mail sessions and gave me no way to enter them
again. I suppose I could edit them into the rc but they WERE there and got
removed so editing might not help. Everything else came in just fine, if I
did not want to receive any mail, very solid :-)
>
> > Running kde3 again, it simply looks much nicer. Icon sizes and text
> > labels work better, overall panel composition (ignoring the funny
> > placements of the last couple of days) looks nicer. And the desktop
> > functionality such as creating new device icons (and having them
> > function) is still not there in kde4. All the resizing, rotations and
> > other stuff is of limited value if one cannot get icon sizes and text
> > labels to coordinate nicely.
>
> Well, plasma dashboard is completely different concept than conventional
> desktop. You can add a Folder View widget to simulate the old desktop. Your
> criticism about device icons might be right (drag and drop from dolphin
> does not work), but please post it to more general upstream KDE list or
> file a wishlist bug to upstream BTS.

May do that. The older desktop functionality is needed. Device-icons already
there from kde3 show neither the mounted or unmounted icon. There is no
refresh and changes it does facilitate are not displayed until something,
anything, forces it. Desktop->properties->apply can do it. Getting an
application icon (drag from menus) does not work correctly and the only way I
can do it is manually copy a preexisting one and hand edit it. Just what is
the concept of the plasma dashboard? What is it supposed to do, hopefully
better, prettier and more effectively than the older concept (which most
folks were used to from any of the other wms?



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Hi,

Tuesday 27 May 2008, David Baron ra:
> But ... plasma is central! Well, in a pinch, kicker will in fact run just
> fine (and in my dual set up, I need to exclude it from the session
> startup!)
I'm not saying that kicker is not good at its job. But it's becoming obsolete
very quickly. I agree with you that plasma is not quite "there" yet, but it is
in usable state for daily tasks if you keep its sensitivity in mind. Hey,
there are still two months till KDE 4.1 release!

> 3.5.6 has kmail 1.9.6
> 4.074 has kmail 1.9.5
Nooooo, it's 1.9.51 (as in fifty)!.

> 4.074 deleted the receive mail sessions and gave me no way to enter them
> again. I suppose I could edit them into the rc but they WERE there and got
> removed so editing might not help.
Indeed, that's interesting of yours. I don't remember having this problem. Now
I'm running a bit later revision though. Btw, if you want to import settings,
copy kmailrc, emailidentitiesrc (or something similar), apps/kmail from ~/.kde
to ~/.kde4 and run (with kmail off)

$ /usr/lib/kde4/libexec/kconf_update
/usr/share/kde4/apps/kconf_update/kmail.upd

kmail recieves mails just fine, but currently it strips non-ASCII characters
when saving and sending mails (the bug I mentioned in my previous mail).

> May do that. The older desktop functionality is needed. Device-icons
> already there from kde3 show neither the mounted or unmounted icon. There
> is no refresh and changes it does facilitate are not displayed until
> something, anything, forces it.
Well, I agree that desktop icons are somewhat unfinished yet. They are too
small, text is almost unreadable, but contrary to KDE 4, they are runable.

> Desktop->properties->apply can do it.
It's minor stuff and will probably fixed for final release. Neither does
desktop theme change take effect until you resize the panel.

> Getting an application icon (drag from menus) does not work correctly
I have not tested, but:

mart * r813469
workspace/trunk/KDE/kdebase/workspace/plasma/applets/icon/icon.cpp: creation
of icons applets by drag and drop works again

> and
> the only way I can do it is manually copy a preexisting one and hand edit
> it. Just what is the concept of the plasma dashboard? What is it supposed
> to do, hopefully better, prettier and more effectively than the older
> concept (which most folks were used to from any of the other wms?
Well, it's more than a "desktop". As far as I understand, dashboard icons are
not real files or anything, they are just plasmoids which are just links to
the some stuff (defined in ~/.kde4/share/config/plasma-appletsrc). They do not
seem to be desktop icons since they do not disappear when you delete a file
from ~/Desktop (or it's another bug). Overall, plasmoid can be anything which
in theory gives you more freedom but might be annoying at first.

--
Modestas Vainius <modestas@vainius.eu>

On Tuesday 27 May 2008 23:43:39 Modestas Vainius wrote:
> > and
> > the only way I can do it is manually copy a preexisting one and hand edit
> > it. Just what is the concept of the plasma dashboard? What is it supposed
> > to do, hopefully better, prettier and more effectively than the older
> > concept (which most folks were used to from any of the other wms?
>
> Well, it's more than a "desktop". As far as I understand, dashboard icons
> are not real files or anything, they are just plasmoids which are just
> links to the some stuff (defined in ~/.kde4/share/config/plasma-appletsrc).
> They do not seem to be desktop icons since they do not disappear when you
> delete a file from ~/Desktop (or it's another bug). Overall, plasmoid can
> be anything which in theory gives you more freedom but might be annoying at
> first.

My experience with this is that stuff that IS a .desktop file in ~/Desktop
shows up. "Removing" this icon . . . it will be back when kde4
restarts/refreshes unless I manually delete the file from ~/Desktop.
Anywhere, it is here I would like backwards compatibility. Executables work
the same way, symlinks to executables, do not. Folders work but device-icons
do not show the mount/umount icons, just the default. The a bit oversized new
device monitor widget is a nice substitute for these one I no longer use kde3
(at least two months away).

Icons placed by drag and drop do not necessarily save anything in ~/Desktop
and the icon can be removed X. These icons do not have the same property set
as the corresponding .desktop file ones and do not behave the same way
either. If apps work again, I will try that out and I hope the properties
correspond to the .desktop files in some way.

These plasmoids might be a very elegant and versatile idea. I look forward to
more use of them, maybe create some. However, folks are starting out in kde3,
gnome, windows, and others which behave in a corresponding manner and
backwards compatibility is in order. Users who so choose can eliminate the
older style stuff at their own pace.


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