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-   -   KDE PIM packaging (http://www.linux-archive.org/debian-kde/673968-kde-pim-packaging.html)

Martin Steigerwald 06-18-2012 09:29 AM

KDE PIM packaging
 
Am Samstag, 16. Juni 2012 schrieb Torsten Grote:
> Hi,

Hi Torsten!

> thanks a lot for all your great work packaging KDE applications for
> Debian!
>
> I'd love to have some information, why the KDE PIM applications are at
> version 4.4.11. This question is not meant to critizise or to
> complain. I'd rather like to know what's stopping the most recent
> releases from being packaged and what would help you to package them?

I am no Debian Qt/KDE packager, so this is in no way an official response.

There has been some discussion about this on this list already.

I think main question is: Is KDEPIM 2 really production ready, i.e. stable
enough?

I get the impression from reading kdepim and kdepim-users that with
4.8.3/4.8.4 it gets there, but I haven´t tested it.

Did you test it?

The switch to Akonadi for KMail is a big one. And I think even right now
there is no way of automatic migration thats working out okay in most
cases. Thus the recommended procedure as far as I am aware of is to
recreate mail accounts and reimport mail from IMAP server or POP3 mail
directory. As far as I read its usually also necessary to recreate all
filter rules.

I´d love to test KDEPIM 2, but I am also still a bit reluctant. I have a
quite insane amount of mail folders, mails and filter rules.

I am considering a parallel installation of some sort to run some tests
for quite some time, but I didn´t take the time to do all that yet.

Ciao,
--
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GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7


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Eshat Cakar 06-18-2012 10:48 AM

KDE PIM packaging
 
Hi Torsten,
hi Martin,

On Mon 18 June 2012 11:29:22 Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> Am Samstag, 16. Juni 2012 schrieb Torsten Grote:
> > I'd love to have some information, why the KDE PIM applications are at
> > version 4.4.11.
> The switch to Akonadi for KMail is a big one. And I think even right now
> there is no way of automatic migration thats working out okay in most
> cases. > Thus the recommended procedure as far as I am aware of is to
> recreate mail accounts and reimport mail from IMAP server or POP3 mail
> directory. As far as I read its usually also necessary to recreate all
> filter rules.
>
> I´d love to test KDEPIM 2,

As martin correctly said, Kdepim 2 lacks migration and that is one reason it
will not be included in wheezy.
But we will provide packages for the curious testers like you, just after the
team finishes the rest of the 4.8.4 transition, which has higher priority due
to the wheezy freeze.

Best regards

--
eshat cakar
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Torsten Grote 06-19-2012 08:06 AM

KDE PIM packaging
 
On Monday 18 June 2012 12:48:08 Eshat Cakar wrote:
> But we will provide packages for the curious testers like you, just after
> the team finishes the rest of the 4.8.4 transition, which has higher
> priority due to the wheezy freeze.

Thanks Eshat, this is great news! :)
I understand that wheezy has higher priority right now and am happy that there
are no major blockers preventing recent KDE PIM from getting packaged.

> As martin correctly said, Kdepim 2 lacks migration and that is one reason
> it will not be included in wheezy.

I'm sitting with several PIM hackers in the same office and they said that
using 4.4.11 programs with recent akonadi is quite "adventurous". Also, I'm
not sure whether the migration will improve in the near future.

As for me, I'm ready to set up my KDE PIM accounts freshly to take advantage
of a more recent and stable platform.

Thanks again for all the great work!
Torsten

Leopold Palomo Avellaneda 06-19-2012 08:43 AM

KDE PIM packaging
 
A Dilluns, 18 de juny de 2012, Eshat Cakar va escriure:
> Hi Torsten,
> hi Martin,
>
> On Mon 18 June 2012 11:29:22 Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > Am Samstag, 16. Juni 2012 schrieb Torsten Grote:
> > > I'd love to have some information, why the KDE PIM applications are at
> > > version 4.4.11.
> >
> > The switch to Akonadi for KMail is a big one. And I think even right now
> > there is no way of automatic migration thats working out okay in most
> > cases. > Thus the recommended procedure as far as I am aware of is to
> > recreate mail accounts and reimport mail from IMAP server or POP3 mail
> > directory. As far as I read its usually also necessary to recreate all
> > filter rules.
> >
> > I´d love to test KDEPIM 2,
>
> As martin correctly said, Kdepim 2 lacks migration and that is one reason
> it will not be included in wheezy.

I don't understand why it could be a reason. AFAIK there's no rule in the Dfsg
about no include a package if upstream has not released a tool to migrate the
configuration from one version to another. The Qt/kde team work hard from the
migration from kde3 to kde4 with the kaboom tool. If now we don't have one, we
cannot obey to the packagers to develop one.

However I could understand to no include it in wheeze to avoid a big amount of
bug reports in the migration process. But, one solution could be include the
tools of kdepim2 with another name and a readme (as others packages has
included) with some explanation.

Not all the debian users are squeeze users that need a perfect migration from
a old version to a new one. There are a lot of new users, or users that change
from gnome to kde or from another distro to debian and would like kde4 FULL.

> But we will provide packages for the curious testers like you, just after
> the team finishes the rest of the 4.8.4 transition, which has higher
> priority due to the wheezy freeze.

Perfect, but please put it in some way in wheezy. Debian deserve a full kde4,
especially with kdepim.

Regards,

Leo



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Dietz Pröpper 06-19-2012 01:35 PM

KDE PIM packaging
 
Martin Steigerwald:

> The switch to Akonadi for KMail is a big one.

And a quite questionable, too.

> And I think even right now
> there is no way of automatic migration thats working out okay in most
> cases.

Wow. What do they smoke over at KDE Central?

> Thus the recommended procedure as far as I am aware of is to
> recreate mail accounts and reimport mail from IMAP server or POP3 mail
> directory. As far as I read its usually also necessary to recreate all
> filter rules.

Fine. I have a ~/Mail around 1G in size and a forest of filter rules.
This "recommended procedure" is simply not feasible for me.

Add to this the quite braindama^W questionable idea to move not only
metadata stuff but the complete maildir to akonadi, and *I* will be out of
the game, for sure.

regards,
Dietz

Kevin Krammer 06-19-2012 02:23 PM

KDE PIM packaging
 
On Tuesday, 2012-06-19, Dietz Pröpper wrote:
> Martin Steigerwald:

> > And I think even right now
> > there is no way of automatic migration thats working out okay in most
> > cases.
>
> Wow. What do they smoke over at KDE Central?

Cuban cigars, I recon because they go well with the Cuban rum they are
drinking over there as well.

Fortunately nobody at KDEPIM Central smokes, though it is rumored that they
occasionally drink beer.

The migration tool has worked quite well on my setup, though I always run it
manually, i.e. not indirectly through starting KMail.
Seems to depend on quite some variables though, e.g. config options used, etc.

Unfortunately work on a much more flexible importer (as in support for
pause/resume/rerun, etc) has not moved forward as anticipated due to resource
constraints.

> > Thus the recommended procedure as far as I am aware of is to
> > recreate mail accounts and reimport mail from IMAP server or POP3 mail
> > directory. As far as I read its usually also necessary to recreate all
> > filter rules.
>
> Fine. I have a ~/Mail around 1G in size and a forest of filter rules.
> This "recommended procedure" is simply not feasible for me.

Size of ~/Mail is mostly irrelevant, it is more a question of per-folder and
per-message meta data, e.g. tags on messages, folder specific config options,
etc.

> Add to this the quite braindama^W questionable idea to move not only
> metadata stuff but the complete maildir to akonadi, and *I* will be out of
> the game, for sure.

Good thing then that idea has never occured to the respective developers.

Cheers,
Kevin

Valerio Passini 06-19-2012 04:43 PM

KDE PIM packaging
 
lunedì 18 giugno 2012 Cakar ha scritto:

> As martin correctly said, Kdepim 2 lacks migration and that is one reason
> it will not be included in wheezy.
> But we will provide packages for the curious testers like you, just after
> the team finishes the rest of the 4.8.4 transition, which has higher
> priority due to the wheezy freeze.
>
> Best regards

martedì 19 giugno 2012

I could understand this point of view if:
1 - a tool to ease the migration it's going to be on the way any time soon (in
the next 2-3 years) before the release of what will be the next stable after
Wheezy, but if such tool is not in anybody's mind I can only complain this
decision.
2 - this hypothetical migration tool will still hold a meaning, considering
the major changes that will come in the next future like the entire KDE moving
from 4.x to 5.x, with likely a lot of new stuff. This will doom Debian to be
always lagging in respect to KDE releases, to miss new technology and to
support mixed KDE environment with piece of "old" KDE inside. This should
scare the developers more than users having troubles migrating emails, IMO.

Just my two thought on the topic, I always love and respect the work you are
doing for packaging KDE. Best regards

Valerio Passini


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Modestas Vainius 06-19-2012 09:04 PM

KDE PIM packaging
 
Hello,

On antradienis 19 Birželis 2012 19:43:12 Valerio Passini wrote:
> martedì 19 giugno 2012
>
> I could understand this point of view if:
> 1 - a tool to ease the migration it's going to be on the way any time soon
> (in the next 2-3 years) before the release of what will be the next stable
> after Wheezy, but if such tool is not in anybody's mind I can only
> complain this decision.
> 2 - this hypothetical migration tool will still hold a meaning, considering
> the major changes that will come in the next future like the entire KDE
> moving from 4.x to 5.x, with likely a lot of new stuff. This will doom
> Debian to be always lagging in respect to KDE releases, to miss new
> technology and to support mixed KDE environment with piece of "old" KDE
> inside. This should scare the developers more than users having troubles
> migrating emails, IMO.

There is nothing wrong with having "old KDE inside" if it works. That said, I
don't claim that pim 2 does not work. We simply don't know it and it's too
late in the game to find out (IMHO). Inexistance of a good migration tool
helps to make the decision though.

FWIW, I'm pretty sure that migration won't ever be fixed. However, users will
have more time to adjust at the start of the next release cycle. What is more,
I think somebody will be kind enough and upload kdepim 4.8.4 to backports and
wheezy users will have the best of two worlds (a choice) in the end.

--
Modestas Vainius <modax@debian.org>

Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer 06-20-2012 01:58 AM

KDE PIM packaging
 
On Mar 19 Jun 2012 18:04:13 Modestas Vainius escribió:
> Hello,
[snip]
> There is nothing wrong with having "old KDE inside" if it works. That said,
> I don't claim that pim 2 does not work. We simply don't know it and it's
> too late in the game to find out (IMHO).

Yes, I also think we are too late.

> Inexistance of a good migration
> tool helps to make the decision though.
>
> FWIW, I'm pretty sure that migration won't ever be fixed. However, users
> will have more time to adjust at the start of the next release cycle.

And we will have more time to properly announce the change. We must do our
best to warn our users in advance that they may get data lost.

> What
> is more, I think somebody will be kind enough and upload kdepim 4.8.4 to
> backports and wheezy users will have the best of two worlds (a choice) in
> the end.

Exactly :)

--
Sea estricto cuando envíe y tolerante cuando reciba. En otras palabras, solo
envíe paquetes que cumplan rigurosamente con lo estándares, pero espere
paquetes que tal vez no cumplan del todo y trate de lidiar con ellos.
Andrew S. Tanenbaum, de su libro "Computer Networks"

Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer
http://perezmeyer.com.ar/
http://perezmeyer.blogspot.com/

Martin Steigerwald 06-20-2012 07:34 AM

KDE PIM packaging
 
Am Dienstag, 19. Juni 2012 schrieb Torsten Grote:
> > As martin correctly said, Kdepim 2 lacks migration and that is one
> > reason it will not be included in wheezy.
>
> I'm sitting with several PIM hackers in the same office and they said
> that using 4.4.11 programs with recent akonadi is quite
> "adventurous". Also, I'm not sure whether the migration will improve
> in the near future.

Hmmm, why?

I think its an important feature for the regular user.

> As for me, I'm ready to set up my KDE PIM accounts freshly to take
> advantage of a more recent and stable platform.

This might be difficult for not so advanced users or people who have a "big"
setup like me. I have to recreate about 100 filter rules and re-integrate
CRM114 spam filtering.

I understand that a 100% complete migration might be difficult to implement
cause there is a wide variety of setups, but at least some help for the
basic stuff like filter rules would be really nice.

Well anyway, thats probably better a discussion on kdepim mailinglist.

--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
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