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Old 08-04-2011, 06:37 PM
Diggory Hardy
 
Default kdebug defaults/build options

Hi all

Regarding default debug output in kde on debian:

1. A while ago I reported this: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=269882
Perhaps disabling logging kget's debug messages makes sense? Or perhaps this is occasionally useful less often a problem? I don't have a strong opinion on this really.


2. At times I've been annoyed by the number of spam messages kwrite/kate leave on the console when run that way. Looking into it, these messages are kDebug outputs. The kde techbase suggests [1] this output is intended to be disabled in releases. Would you have any objections to doing this in the future, with kwrite at least? There's not many programs I've had problems with, but I do wince when running kwrite from a console every so often.

[1]: http://techbase.kde.org/Development/FAQs/Debugging_FAQ#Is_there_a_preferred_way_to_print_de bug_output_on_stderr.3F


Cheers,
Diggory
 
Old 08-05-2011, 12:17 AM
Bruce Sass
 
Default kdebug defaults/build options

On August 4, 2011 12:37:37 PM Diggory Hardy wrote:
> Hi all
>
> Regarding default debug output in kde on debian:
>
> 1. A while ago I reported this: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=269882
> Perhaps disabling logging kget's debug messages makes sense? Or perhaps
> this is occasionally useful less often a problem? I don't have a strong
> opinion on this really.
>
> 2. At times I've been annoyed by the number of *spam* messages kwrite/kate
> leave on the console when run that way. Looking into it, these messages are
> kDebug outputs. The kde techbase suggests [1] this output is intended to be
> disabled in releases. Would you have any objections to doing this in the
> future, with kwrite at least? There's not many programs I've had problems
> with, but I do wince when running kwrite from a console every so often.
> [1]:
> http://techbase.kde.org/Development/FAQs/Debugging_FAQ#Is_there_a_preferred
> _way_to_print_debug_output_on_stderr.3F

My work-around to this problem is to tack "&>/dev/null &" onto the end of all
cmdline issued KDE commands...

...but, ya, it would be real nice if that wasn't necessary and could open the
door to wider use of Debian's KDE. e.g.: I'd love to run a KDE based system
off a USB flash drive but all those (typically useless during normal
operation*) messages will drastically shorten the flash drive's life--I expect
the same would be true of any device using solid state HDDs. I have also run
into apps dying when /home gets flled up by .xsession-errors, this is more of
a PITA than anything else but lowering the bar a bit by reducing the HDD
overhead--and consequently improving startup times--will allow KDE to run
better on slower systems or those with limited HDD space (or with /home as a
network FS!) than it does currently.

If Debian rebuilt packages for each archive I'd say an argument could be made
to leave it as it is for Unstable, reduce the output to only errors for
Testing, and turn them all off for Stable--but since packages migrate into the
archives (prehaps soon even those in Experimental will start migrating) it may
be best to turn off all messages from the start and educate users on the use
of kdebugdialog when problems arise.

- Bruce

* Here is a short extract from the end of my current .xsesion-errors...
QSslSocket: cannot resolve SSLv2_client_method
QSslSocket: cannot resolve SSLv2_server_method
QSslSocket: cannot resolve SSLv2_client_method
QSslSocket: cannot resolve SSLv2_server_method
QSslSocket: cannot resolve SSLv2_client_method
QSslSocket: cannot resolve SSLv2_server_method
QSslSocket: cannot resolve SSLv2_client_method
QSslSocket: cannot resolve SSLv2_server_method
QPainter::begin: Widget painting can only begin as a result of a paintEvent
QPainter::translate: Painter not active
QPainter::setClipRect: Painter not active
plasma-desktop(2975)/plasma StatusNotifierItemSource::refreshCallback:
DBusMenu disabled for this application
plasma-desktop(2975)/plasma StatusNotifierItemSource::refreshCallback:
DBusMenu disabled for this application
plasma-desktop(2975)/plasma StatusNotifierItemSource::refreshCallback:
DBusMenu disabled for this application
QSslSocket: cannot resolve SSLv2_client_method
QSslSocket: cannot resolve SSLv2_server_method
QGraphicsLinearLayout::removeAt: invalid index 1
QGraphicsLinearLayout::removeAt: invalid index 1
true
... if one knew the messages were the result of turning on output for a
specific app or subsystem they may be useful in tracking down a problem, but
without that context they appear to be just noise. This may be a case where
less output could improve debuggabilty (sp. ).


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Old 08-09-2011, 04:04 PM
Diggory Hardy
 
Default kdebug defaults/build options

Nice to see someone agrees with me but I was kinda expecting some sort of response from one of the package maintainers. Is it best to file a bug or just wait till this catches someone else's attention?

Cheers,Diggory
 
Old 08-09-2011, 09:44 PM
Bruce Sass
 
Default kdebug defaults/build options

On August 9, 2011 10:04:41 AM Diggory Hardy wrote:
> Nice to see someone agrees with me but I was kinda expecting some sort of
> response from one of the package maintainers. Is it best to file a bug or
> just wait till this catches someone else's attention?
>

If you want to persue it, file a wishlist severity bug report against the
"kde" pseudo-package, or maybe the individual apps you commonly run from the
command line.


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Old 08-10-2011, 08:13 PM
Xavier Brochard
 
Default kdebug defaults/build options

Bruce Sass wrote:

>> 2. At times I've been annoyed by the number of spam messages kwrite/kate
>> leave on the console when run that way. Looking into it, these messages
>> are kDebug outputs. The kde techbase suggests [1] this output is intended
>> to be disabled in releases. Would you have any objections to doing this
>> in the future, with kwrite at least? There's not many programs I've had
>> problems with, but I do wince when running kwrite from a console every so
>> often.
>> [1]:
>>
http://techbase.kde.org/Development/FAQs/Debugging_FAQ#Is_there_a_preferred
>> _way_to_print_debug_output_on_stderr.3F
>
> My work-around to this problem is to tack "&>/dev/null &" onto the end of
> all cmdline issued KDE commands...

An easier approach is to simply run kdebugdialog then select/deselect the
apps that you want to not send debug output

xavier



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Old 08-12-2011, 08:08 PM
john Culleton
 
Default kdebug defaults/build options

On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 22:13:49 +0200
Xavier Brochard <xavier@alternatif.org> wrote:

> Bruce Sass wrote:
>
> >> 2. At times I've been annoyed by the number of spam messages
> >> kwrite/kate leave on the console when run that way. Looking into
> >> it, these messages are kDebug outputs. The kde techbase suggests
> >> [1] this output is intended to be disabled in releases. Would you
> >> have any objections to doing this in the future, with kwrite at
> >> least? There's not many programs I've had problems with, but I do
> >> wince when running kwrite from a console every so often.
> >> [1]:
> >>
> http://techbase.kde.org/Development/FAQs/Debugging_FAQ#Is_there_a_preferred
> >> _way_to_print_debug_output_on_stderr.3F
> >
> > My work-around to this problem is to tack "&>/dev/null &" onto the
> > end of all cmdline issued KDE commands...
>
> An easier approach is to simply run kdebugdialog then select/deselect
> the apps that you want to not send debug output
>
> xavier
>
>
>
well since I am a user and not a developer I just set the thing to
nodebug messages. I will see if this kills all those stupid messages at
the start of Kmail issued by Akonadi. If so, I will discovered the
answer to a persistent
---
John Culleton
2401 Haight Avenue
Eldersburg, MD 21784
410-795-1159 problem.


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Old 08-12-2011, 11:58 PM
Bruce Sass
 
Default kdebug defaults/build options

On August 10, 2011 02:13:49 PM Xavier Brochard wrote:
> Bruce Sass wrote:
> >> 2. At times I've been annoyed by the number of spam messages kwrite/kate
> >> leave on the console when run that way. Looking into it, these messages
> >> are kDebug outputs. The kde techbase suggests [1] this output is
> >> intended to be disabled in releases. Would you have any objections to
> >> doing this in the future, with kwrite at least? There's not many
> >> programs I've had problems with, but I do wince when running kwrite
> >> from a console every so often.
>
> >> [1]:
> http://techbase.kde.org/Development/FAQs/Debugging_FAQ#Is_there_a_preferred
>
> >> _way_to_print_debug_output_on_stderr.3F
> >
> > My work-around to this problem is to tack "&>/dev/null &" onto the end of
> > all cmdline issued KDE commands...
>
> An easier approach is to simply run kdebugdialog then select/deselect the
> apps that you want to not send debug output

If I ever run Stable's KDE I probably will--assuming Debian hasn't already--
with Unstable though I prefer keeping the system as close to as-installed as
is reasonably possible because I'm working under the (perhaps misguided
<shrug>) assumption that it is the default configuration which is most
important to Debian, and fiddling with lower level stuff like that could
interfere with its characterization (finding, reporting, and verifying bugs
and quirks).

Another way to look at this annoyance is via the "learning curves". Currently,
everyone who runs Debian's KDE programs from the cmdline will run into the too
much verbosity problem and consequently the kdebugdialog will be on their
Debian-KDE learning curve; If the messages were of by default the only ones
who would have need for kdebugdialog in their learning curve would be those
actually interested in debugging Debian's KDE. IOW, spewing mostly useless
messages as a default the behaviour increases the length and steepness of a
regular user's Debian-KDE learning curve, when it should really be the user
who wants to non-usual stuff (like debugging) who's curve should be longer and
steeper.

- Bruce


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Old 08-13-2011, 09:52 PM
Xavier Brochard
 
Default kdebug defaults/build options

Bruce Sass wrote:
> On August 10, 2011 02:13:49 PM Xavier Brochard wrote:
>> Bruce Sass wrote:
>> >> 2. At times I've been annoyed by the number of spam messages
>> >> kwrite/kate leave on the console when run that way. Looking into it,
>> >> these messages are kDebug outputs. The kde techbase suggests [1] this
>> >> output is intended to be disabled in releases. Would you have any
>> >> objections to doing this in the future, with kwrite at least? There's
>> >> not many programs I've had problems with, but I do wince when running
>> >> kwrite from a console every so often.
>>
>> >> [1]:
>>
http://techbase.kde.org/Development/FAQs/Debugging_FAQ#Is_there_a_preferred
>>
>> >> _way_to_print_debug_output_on_stderr.3F
>> >
>> > My work-around to this problem is to tack "&>/dev/null &" onto the end
>> > of all cmdline issued KDE commands...
>>
>> An easier approach is to simply run kdebugdialog then select/deselect the
>> apps that you want to not send debug output
>
> If I ever run Stable's KDE I probably will--assuming Debian hasn't
> already-- with Unstable though I prefer keeping the system as close to
> as-installed as is reasonably possible because I'm working under the
> (perhaps misguided <shrug>) assumption that it is the default
> configuration which is most important to Debian, and fiddling with lower
> level stuff like that could interfere with its characterization (finding,
> reporting, and verifying bugs and quirks).
>
> Another way to look at this annoyance is via the "learning curves".
> Currently, everyone who runs Debian's KDE programs from the cmdline will
> run into the too much verbosity problem and consequently the kdebugdialog
> will be on their Debian-KDE learning curve; If the messages were of by
> default the only ones who would have need for kdebugdialog in their
> learning curve would be those actually interested in debugging Debian's
> KDE. IOW, spewing mostly useless messages as a default the behaviour
> increases the length and steepness of a regular user's Debian-KDE learning
> curve, when it should really be the user who wants to non-usual stuff
> (like debugging) who's curve should be longer and steeper.

I totaly agree, except I think Debian's difference is that one have to
configure it to its need (that's the difference with Ubuntu, Mandriva, SuSE,
etc.). Try for example, to install ltsp on ubuntu (nothing to do) and on
debian (must configure everything). Default setup in Debian is only "basic".

I don't use kdebugdialog for myself. ;-)

regards
xavier



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Old 08-13-2011, 10:01 PM
Xavier Brochard
 
Default kdebug defaults/build options

Bruce Sass wrote:
> On August 10, 2011 02:13:49 PM Xavier Brochard wrote:
>> Bruce Sass wrote:
>> >> 2. At times I've been annoyed by the number of spam messages
>> >> kwrite/kate leave on the console when run that way. Looking into it,
>> >> these messages are kDebug outputs. The kde techbase suggests [1] this
>> >> output is intended to be disabled in releases. Would you have any
>> >> objections to doing this in the future, with kwrite at least? There's
>> >> not many programs I've had problems with, but I do wince when running
>> >> kwrite from a console every so often.
>>
>> >> [1]:
>>
http://techbase.kde.org/Development/FAQs/Debugging_FAQ#Is_there_a_preferred
>>
>> >> _way_to_print_debug_output_on_stderr.3F
>> >
>> > My work-around to this problem is to tack "&>/dev/null &" onto the end
>> > of all cmdline issued KDE commands...
>>
>> An easier approach is to simply run kdebugdialog then select/deselect the
>> apps that you want to not send debug output
>
> If I ever run Stable's KDE I probably will--assuming Debian hasn't
> already--

No, but I don't know what is the good choice:
On one Debian squeeze install, I've got a .xsession-errors which grows very
fast (a few hours) to 320 Go. It was on a multi users system and was very
problematic. It was purely a kde problem (with Nepomuk/Akonadi), which I
solved. But, if debug output were disable, it might be possible that I would
never know about it.

regards
xavier


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Old 08-18-2011, 10:26 PM
Bruce Sass
 
Default kdebug defaults/build options

On August 13, 2011 04:01:54 PM Xavier Brochard wrote:
> Bruce Sass wrote:
> > On August 10, 2011 02:13:49 PM Xavier Brochard wrote:
> >> Bruce Sass wrote:
> >> >> 2. At times I've been annoyed by the number of spam messages
> >> >> kwrite/kate leave on the console when run that way. Looking into it,
> >> >> these messages are kDebug outputs. The kde techbase suggests [1] this
> >> >> output is intended to be disabled in releases. Would you have any
> >> >> objections to doing this in the future, with kwrite at least? There's
> >> >> not many programs I've had problems with, but I do wince when running
> >> >> kwrite from a console every so often.
>
> >> >> [1]:
> http://techbase.kde.org/Development/FAQs/Debugging_FAQ#Is_there_a_preferred
>
> >> >> _way_to_print_debug_output_on_stderr.3F
> >> >
> >> > My work-around to this problem is to tack "&>/dev/null &" onto the end
> >> > of all cmdline issued KDE commands...
> >>
> >> An easier approach is to simply run kdebugdialog then select/deselect
> >> the apps that you want to not send debug output
> >
> > If I ever run Stable's KDE I probably will--assuming Debian hasn't
> > already--
>
> No, but I don't know what is the good choice:
> On one Debian squeeze install, I've got a .xsession-errors which grows very
> fast (a few hours) to 320 Go. It was on a multi users system and was very
> problematic. It was purely a kde problem (with Nepomuk/Akonadi), which I
> solved. But, if debug output were disable, it might be possible that I
> would never know about it.

[sorry for the late response]

If the only symptom was the huge log file then it could be argued that: had
debug messages been disabled, there wouldn't have been a problem...

I'm assuming that this [disabling debug messages] would be a change in the
default kdebugdialog settings, and as such would be reversible by the
admin/user. So, it would still be possible to discover the problem you ran
into although there may be a bit of a delay until kdebugdialog is discovered
and adjusted.

- Bruce


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