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Old 08-12-2010, 01:49 AM
Odair Augusto Trujillo Orozco
 
Default KDE SC 4.5.0

Hi, last days the release team has decide frozen squeeze, butkde sc 4.5.0 was released today and is a great release that isimportant to include on Squeeze thinking on newest versions ofpackages on Debian Stable like it is posible.


Please, include KDE SC 4.5.0 on Squezee.
--
"LARGA VIDA Y PODEROSA."
 
Old 08-12-2010, 03:24 AM
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr."
 
Default KDE SC 4.5.0

On Wednesday 11 August 2010 20:49:15 Odair Augusto Trujillo Orozco wrote:
> Hi, last days the release team has decide frozen squeeze, but
> kde sc 4.5.0 was released today and is a great release that is
> important to include on Squeeze thinking on newest versions of
> packages on Debian Stable like it is posible.

Why is KDE 4.5 more important than any other piece of software released after
the freeze?

The freeze has to happen at some point or the release never occurs. The
*point* of the freeze to to stop introducing new upstream versions so that all
efforts can go toward resolving bugs, in order of decreasing severity.

So, unless you have something to convince the release team to allow KDE 4.5 in
AND are volunteering the extra effort required to package KDE SC 4.5 and
resolve bugs without delaying the release, I think the team should focus on
making KDE SC 4.4 (and the rest of the software they maintain) of the highest
quality possible before release day.

My opinion only. I'm not on the team, nor do I speak for it.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =.
bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/
 
Old 08-12-2010, 03:52 AM
Sam Leon
 
Default KDE SC 4.5.0

On 08/11/2010 10:24 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:

On Wednesday 11 August 2010 20:49:15 Odair Augusto Trujillo Orozco wrote:

Hi, last days the release team has decide frozen squeeze, but
kde sc 4.5.0 was released today and is a great release that is
important to include on Squeeze thinking on newest versions of
packages on Debian Stable like it is posible.


Why is KDE 4.5 more important than any other piece of software released after
the freeze?

The freeze has to happen at some point or the release never occurs. The
*point* of the freeze to to stop introducing new upstream versions so that all
efforts can go toward resolving bugs, in order of decreasing severity.

So, unless you have something to convince the release team to allow KDE 4.5 in
AND are volunteering the extra effort required to package KDE SC 4.5 and
resolve bugs without delaying the release, I think the team should focus on
making KDE SC 4.4 (and the rest of the software they maintain) of the highest
quality possible before release day.

My opinion only. I'm not on the team, nor do I speak for it.


Well 4.5 does have 16,000 bug fixes....

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/kde-45-released-1723-new-features-16022-bug-fixes/9276

And it took 6 months to get here, a shame to miss by only 1 week....

Sam


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Old 08-12-2010, 06:02 AM
Martin Steigerwald
 
Default KDE SC 4.5.0

Am Donnerstag 12 August 2010 schrieb Sam Leon:
> On 08/11/2010 10:24 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> > On Wednesday 11 August 2010 20:49:15 Odair Augusto Trujillo Orozco
wrote:
> >> Hi, last days the release team has decide frozen squeeze, but
> >> kde sc 4.5.0 was released today and is a great release that is
> >> important to include on Squeeze thinking on newest versions of
> >> packages on Debian Stable like it is posible.
> >
> > Why is KDE 4.5 more important than any other piece of software
> > released after the freeze?
> >
> > The freeze has to happen at some point or the release never occurs.
> > The *point* of the freeze to to stop introducing new upstream
> > versions so that all efforts can go toward resolving bugs, in order
> > of decreasing severity.
> >
> > So, unless you have something to convince the release team to allow
> > KDE 4.5 in AND are volunteering the extra effort required to package
> > KDE SC 4.5 and resolve bugs without delaying the release, I think
> > the team should focus on making KDE SC 4.4 (and the rest of the
> > software they maintain) of the highest quality possible before
> > release day.
> >
> > My opinion only. I'm not on the team, nor do I speak for it.
>
> Well 4.5 does have 16,000 bug fixes....
>
> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/kde-45-released-1723-new-features-16
> 022-bug-fixes/9276
>
> And it took 6 months to get here, a shame to miss by only 1 week....

The focus on bug fixing is what would me like to see it in Squeeze too and
the chance to have Akonadi 1.4 but this newer Akonadi might even work with
KDE 4.4. And well it does not have Akonadi based KMail which likely
introduces a plethora of new bugs. But then for me KDE 4.4.5 is quite good
either and it also received 5 months of bug fixing. And the packages have
matured.

An approach would be to put 4.5 packages into experimental and ask for
public testing here. If KDE 4.5.0 proves to be of required high quality
for a Debian release then why not use it for Squeeze. But then the KDE/Qt
developers would have to maintain KDE 4.4.5 packages as well as KDE 4.5
packages until it is clear that KDE 4.5 packages can be used for the
release. And it could turn out that this would be 2-3 months until KDE
4.5.2 or so.

I can understand when they are not willing to do that. And I can hear them
thinking "I knew that users would request KDE 4.5." ;-).

At least there should be a clear date on when the decision is made and it
should not be that long away so that the Debian developers do not have to
take the burden of maintaining two KDE releases for too long. Maybe say,
either 4.5.1 is okay, or leave it as 4.4.5?

Well, only some thoughts. I accept whatever decision the developers who do
the work to bring KDE to Debian choose.

If KDE 4.5 has 16000 bug fixes, then I wonder why 4.4 worked anyway... how
has that number been compiled? Hmmm, in the interview linked from above
ZDNet Sebastian Kgler says:

---------------------------------------------------------------------
About how many changes were made between 4.4 and 4.5?

Our bug statistics give me the following numbers for the past release
cycle. 16022 bugs were fixed and 1723 feature requests were filled. The
fasted bug fix was 46 seconds after reporting and the second fastest was 56
seconds.

There was an emphasis on stability for this release, what are some of the
areas that needed the most improvement?

There wasn't really a sore thumb sticking out, we were just not really
happy with overall performance. Some features also felt incomplete, so we
decided that in this cycle, we'd concentrate on finishing off what was there
in 4.4.

For me personally, that meant putting many hours into the Plasma network
management widget, which we've managed to release in a first stable version
along with 4.5.0.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.techworld.com.au/article/356373/kde_innovation_still_brewing_amid_stable_4_5_relea se

It doesn't explain exactly how the bug stastics has been done - but it
seems to me Sebastian is indeed referring to bugzilla statistics , I have
seen a lot of activity in there, also fixing of long standing bugs but
already at least parly for KDE 4.4.5. Missing from the picture is the
number of how many bugs have been introduced! But I have to admit I really
like that emphasis on finishing off stuff that were only halfly done. I
haven't tested KDE 4.5 yet, but it may be quite good with that focus on
stabilizing and finishing!

Ciao,
--
Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de
GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7
 
Old 08-12-2010, 06:16 AM
"Boyd Stephen Smith Jr."
 
Default KDE SC 4.5.0

On Wednesday 11 August 2010 22:52:28 Sam Leon wrote:
> On 08/11/2010 10:24 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> > My opinion only. I'm not on the team, nor do I speak for it.
>
> Well 4.5 does have 16,000 bug fixes....

And probably a like number of new bugs. Also, does it contain fixes for any
of the important bugs: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-
bin/pkgreport.cgi?ordering=normal;archive=0;src=meta-kde;repeatmerged=0 --
ones which are actually known to affect Debian users?

NB: Congratulations to the team for the zero RC bugs on that page.

> And it took 6 months to get here, a shame to miss by only 1 week....

Next time, ask upstream to release a week early. :P

Seriously, every time there is a freeze some pet package misses the date just
"just a few days" and someone starts whining that the release will somehow be
lessened by it's absence. Having the latest version is not always be best
option for a stable release. (In fact, I think is it rarely the best option.)
It is better to have the stable release be well-tested software that has as
few bugs as possible on release day.

A high-quality release means less time spent my the maintainers on fixing
issues in stable. The can lead to more time working on unstable and
collaborating with upstream, which means fewer RC bugs in testing and unstable
as well. All Debian users win when we get a high-quality release. I think
the best way to do that with the KDE SC included in the release is to focus
efforts on KDE SC 4.4, back-porting fixes on KDE SC 4.5 as needed.

Getting KDE SC 4.5 into Squeeze is defensible, and if the packaging team
decides to do that I will be appreciative. But, because of my trust in the
maintainers, I will also be fine if they choose to have KDE SC 4.4 be in the
squeeze release instead.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =.
bss@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/ \_/
 
Old 08-12-2010, 07:40 AM
Modestas Vainius
 
Default KDE SC 4.5.0

Hello,

On ketvirtadienis 12 Rugpjūtis 2010 04:49:15 Odair Augusto Trujillo Orozco
wrote:
> Hi, last days the release team has decide frozen squeeze, but
> kde sc 4.5.0 was released today and is a great release that is
> important to include on Squeeze thinking on newest versions of
> packages on Debian Stable like it is posible.
>
> Please, include KDE SC 4.5.0 on Squezee.

No, it is not possible. Freeze is freeze and there is no workaround for it.
Squeeze will be what it is now + bug fixes. It does not matter how much
software versions in squeeze age or how supposedly good later versions are.
When the freeze comes, it's simply too late new feature or new upstream
releases.

--
Modestas Vainius <modestas@vainius.eu>
 
Old 08-12-2010, 07:50 AM
Modestas Vainius
 
Default KDE SC 4.5.0

Sveiki,

On ketvirtadienis 12 Rugpjūtis 2010 09:02:58 Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> Am Donnerstag 12 August 2010 schrieb Sam Leon:
> > On 08/11/2010 10:24 PM, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> > > On Wednesday 11 August 2010 20:49:15 Odair Augusto Trujillo Orozco
>
> wrote:
> > >> Hi, last days the release team has decide frozen squeeze, but
> > >> kde sc 4.5.0 was released today and is a great release that is
> > >> important to include on Squeeze thinking on newest versions of
> > >> packages on Debian Stable like it is posible.
> > >
> > > Why is KDE 4.5 more important than any other piece of software
> > > released after the freeze?
> > >
> > > The freeze has to happen at some point or the release never occurs.
> > > The *point* of the freeze to to stop introducing new upstream
> > > versions so that all efforts can go toward resolving bugs, in order
> > > of decreasing severity.
> > >
> > > So, unless you have something to convince the release team to allow
> > > KDE 4.5 in AND are volunteering the extra effort required to package
> > > KDE SC 4.5 and resolve bugs without delaying the release, I think
> > > the team should focus on making KDE SC 4.4 (and the rest of the
> > > software they maintain) of the highest quality possible before
> > > release day.
> > >
> > > My opinion only. I'm not on the team, nor do I speak for it.
> >
> > Well 4.5 does have 16,000 bug fixes....
> >
> > http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/kde-45-released-1723-new-features-16
> > 022-bug-fixes/9276
> >
> > And it took 6 months to get here, a shame to miss by only 1 week....
>
> The focus on bug fixing is what would me like to see it in Squeeze too and
> the chance to have Akonadi 1.4 but this newer Akonadi might even work with
> KDE 4.4.

It works. However, I said a couple of months ago, it needed help and nobody
stepped up, and now it is too late.

> An approach would be to put 4.5 packages into experimental and ask for
> public testing here. If KDE 4.5.0 proves to be of required high quality
> for a Debian release then why not use it for Squeeze. But then the KDE/Qt
> developers would have to maintain KDE 4.4.5 packages as well as KDE 4.5
> packages until it is clear that KDE 4.5 packages can be used for the
> release. And it could turn out that this would be 2-3 months until KDE
> 4.5.2 or so.

Regardless of the package quality of the future versions, there is no way KDE
4.5 could enter squeeze. And 4.4.5 must stay in unstable until squeeze is
released. So "boring" freeze period + starvation of new upstream versions for
more complicated software are ahead for sid users (like during any freeze).
Only experimental is fully open to new software.

--
Modestas Vainius <modestas@vainius.eu>
 
Old 08-12-2010, 07:55 AM
Johannes Fichtinger
 
Default KDE SC 4.5.0

Am Donnerstag, 12. August 2010 schrieb Martin Steigerwald:

> An approach would be to put 4.5 packages into experimental and ask for
> public testing here.

Yes, I do hope this will happen. As an SID user, I am in fact unlike many
others not happy about the freeze as this means for me, that I don’t recieve
that regular feature updates anymore. Before, new KDE versions were generally
quite quick in SID.

I wonder, how many others are out there using debian like me as an excellent
rolling distribution and who do not care at all about releases?

BTW, why does a freeze imply that no new versions arrive in unstable? Wouldn‘t
it be enough to stop the automatic migration from unstable to testing during
freeze?

Johannes


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Old 08-12-2010, 08:18 AM
Modestas Vainius
 
Default KDE SC 4.5.0

Hello,

On ketvirtadienis 12 Rugpjūtis 2010 10:55:56 Johannes Fichtinger wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, 12. August 2010 schrieb Martin Steigerwald:
> > An approach would be to put 4.5 packages into experimental and ask for
> > public testing here.
>
> Yes, I do hope this will happen. As an SID user, I am in fact unlike many
> others not happy about the freeze as this means for me, that I don’t
> recieve that regular feature updates anymore. Before, new KDE versions
> were generally quite quick in SID.

Nope.

> I wonder, how many others are out there using debian like me as an
> excellent rolling distribution and who do not care at all about releases?

Quite many. Approximately 40%-50% of debian desktop users use testing or
unstable. For example, compare popcon numbers of kdebase [1]. kdebase-bin is
available in all flavours (lenny, squeeze and sid) - 16124. libkonq5 is
available only in squeeze/sid and it is pretty essential - 6013. Quite similar
numbers in case of amarok [2]. amarok is available in all flavours (6669),
amarok-utils only in squeeze/sid - 3413 (though amarok-utils can be installed
independently of amarok so the number is a bit higher).

> BTW, why does a freeze imply that no new versions arrive in unstable?
> Wouldn‘t it be enough to stop the automatic migration from unstable to
> testing during freeze?

Unstable is a preferred way for packages to migrate to testing. Therefore,
unstable should stay "compatible" with testing during freeze.

[1] http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=kdebase
[2] http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=amarok

--
Modestas Vainius <modestas@vainius.eu>
 
Old 08-12-2010, 08:44 AM
David Baron
 
Default KDE SC 4.5.0

On Thursday 12 August 2010 10:55:56 Johannes Fichtinger wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, 12. August 2010 schrieb Martin Steigerwald:
> > An approach would be to put 4.5 packages into experimental and ask for
> > public testing here.
>
> Yes, I do hope this will happen. As an SID user, I am in fact unlike many
> others not happy about the freeze as this means for me, that I don’t
> recieve that regular feature updates anymore. Before, new KDE versions
> were generally quite quick in SID.
>
> I wonder, how many others are out there using debian like me as an
> excellent rolling distribution and who do not care at all about releases?
>
> BTW, why does a freeze imply that no new versions arrive in unstable?
> Wouldn‘t it be enough to stop the automatic migration from unstable to
> testing during freeze?


Yes, put in experimental.

Squeeze is frozen sort of paralyzing Sid as well but this is probably
desirable for maintaining package standards.


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