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Old 05-07-2010, 07:32 PM
Ana Guerrero
 
Default KDE in Debian, a personal POV

A couple of ideas that might not be very clear:


Suggestions if you still want to use KDE 3.5
--------------------------------------------
- keep using Lenny forever
- learn how to build it, install it e.g. in /opt/kde and learn how to update it
every time there is a new non-compatible library in your system
- switch to another distribution that stills ships kde 3.5 (I think centos 5.0
still ships KDE 3.5.4)
- pay/bribe somebody to make packages for you.

Somebody will add here about some KDE 3.5 repositories that are out there, but
those repositories are unlikely to be there forever.


suggestions if you do not want to use KDE 4.4
----------------------------------------------
- switch to another desktop like Gnome, XFCE, GNU STEP or LXDE
- don't use any desktop
- learn how to love KDE 4 ?


suggestions if you are OK with KDE 4.4 but you have some issues
---------------------------------------------------------------
Ask yourself what you can do to improve it. Understand developers working in
a project do not have the same motivation or interest than you and they primarily
write the software for them, not for you, just they share it and you can use it
too (or improve it)
You can ask them nicely to look at your stuff, and they can tell you nicely if
they are not interested.

Complain unfairly will only demotivate developers and will have the opposite
effect of what you wanted.


Some extra comments:

If you think "Debian" (*) (not the Qt/KDE maintainers) should be acting different,
make sure you agree with the Debian Social Contract and Constitution, start
contributing to Debian until you become a person who has a track of contributions
and then you can try converting Debian in what you think it should be.

(*) mind debian is not an entity, it is a bunch of people with very different
motivations.

If you think you do not have the skills to contribute, you can try start learning,
all the developers started as a mere users, sometimes because they did not like
something!.
If you do not have the time, that's life, you have to choose, I would love eating
good vegetarians meals every day but I do not have the time to learn how to cook
them every day or the money to pay for them, mostly because I choose to do other
things on my time.


Finally, a more personal opinion, that I hope will help to understand the point,
in the case I would have not liked KDE 4 at all, I just would have switched
to something else. It would have never cross my mind maintaining KDE 3, it would
have required like 2 or 3 times the work currently it takes maintaining KDE 4,
that is not exaclty little.
Some people seem to believe we do not maintain KDE 3 just because we do not want and
it would just be matter of keeping those packages there in a corner of the archive,
it would be a titanic work maintaining such a piece of abandoned software.
You would be underestimating if you think 2-3 persons could maintain KDE 3 on
their own, when KDE 3 was actively maintained it had more than 200 developers,
some paid to do so full time! Maybe you do not need so many people to maintain
it just working, but there are small features you might want in the future,
e.g support for HTML 5. How can 2-3 persons without deep knowledge of
all the code expect to do that?

Have a nice weekend,

Ana


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Old 05-07-2010, 07:52 PM
Mike Bird
 
Default KDE in Debian, a personal POV

On Fri May 7 2010 12:32:29 Ana Guerrero wrote:
> Suggestions if you still want to use KDE 3.5
> --------------------------------------------
(snip)
> - learn how to build it, install it e.g. in /opt/kde and learn how to
> update it every time there is a new non-compatible library in your system

Users could rebuild KDE from SVN but if we were so
inclined we wouldn't be Debian users.

Debian already has done all the work and maintains all
the infrastructure. It's vastly less work for Debian
to rebuild KDE 3.5 when a library changes rather than
force users to try to create a new build infrastructure.

Debian ships all sorts of software, including even
non-free software. Would it be possible to continue
rebuilding and shipping KDE 3.5, perhaps in "contrib",
perhaps with a huge "no security updates" disclaimer?

--Mike Bird


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Old 05-07-2010, 10:09 PM
Noah Meyerhans
 
Default KDE in Debian, a personal POV

On Fri, May 07, 2010 at 12:52:09PM -0700, Mike Bird wrote:
> Debian ships all sorts of software, including even
> non-free software. Would it be possible to continue
> rebuilding and shipping KDE 3.5, perhaps in "contrib",
> perhaps with a huge "no security updates" disclaimer?

Hi Mike. You've implied elsewhere in this thread that you have some
users for whom you provide KDE-based desktop support of some kind.
Would you really be willing to provide these people with a desktop
comprised of software that not only gets no security support from the
distro vendor, but also no security support from an upstream development
community?

KDE 3 is dead. Nobody is looking after the code base to find and squash
bugs, patch security flaws, maintain compatibility with possible API
changes of library dependencies, etc. This is not a simple matter of
packaging. This is an orphaned project. Maybe someday this trinity
project will amount to something, but it can not be considered anything
short of a fork of the original KDE code base. It does not have the
same developer community or resources, and can not be considered the
same project. If it ends up getting packaged for Debian, which is
certainly within the realm of possibilities, then it must be treated as
a new project, and go through the standard NEW queue and all that. If
the upstream maintainers of that project end up building a community of
developers around their project, and there are people interested in
packaging it for Debian, then you could very well see it included in
squeeze+1. Given that nobody here has expressed any interest in
actually doing that, I'm not sure how likely it really is. Howver, no
matter what happens, there is zero chance of it being included in
squeeze.

noah
 
Old 05-07-2010, 10:30 PM
Mark Purcell
 
Default KDE in Debian, a personal POV

On Saturday 08 May 2010 05:52:09 Mike Bird wrote:
> Would it be possible to continue
> rebuilding and shipping KDE 3.5, perhaps in "contrib",
> perhaps with a huge "no security updates" disclaimer?

People in Debian will work on what they want too, no more, no less.

If you want a KDE3.5 team then go to http://alioth.debian.org, and create a
pkg-kde3.5 team.

Lead, recruit and encourage people to join your team and get working on your
problem.

You don't need to be a _developer_ to do this, you just need to be motivated.

There seems to be lots of motivation here, so channel this into your own team,
don't try and convince other teams to work on something they don't want too.

Mark
 
Old 05-08-2010, 02:20 PM
Adrian von Bidder
 
Default KDE in Debian, a personal POV

On Friday 07 May 2010 21.52:09 Mike Bird wrote:
> Debian already has done all the work and maintains all
> the infrastructure. It's vastly less work for Debian
> to rebuild KDE 3.5 when a library changes rather than
> force users to try to create a new build infrastructure.

Nobody said you'd have to recreate the packaging to use KDE 3.5.

Take the last 3.5 packages, import them into the vcs of your choice, start
hacking. At least at first it's probably not much work for you to get the
packages building with the current libraries from squeeze/sid.

Change paths and package names so the packages don't conflict with the
current KDE4 packages. Then announce the packages are available. Then work
with the other users to continue maintaining them.

It's that easy.

All Ana and the other packagers are saying: they're not going to do it, YOU
have to do it. If you do it properly, nobody will prevent you from
uploading the packages to Debian so they can be part of the official
release. If you aim for squeeze, get working FAST because time's probably
nearly up.

Of course, once they're released: be prepared to maintain the packages. The
security team will heavily stomp on your fingers if you don't fix security
bugs. Users will expect konqueror 3.5 to render most webpages correctly
even as the HTML/CSS/... standards evolve. etc. etc. THAT's where the work
is: you'll not only be offering 3.5 packages, you'll also be upstream
maintainer of KDE 3.5.

cheers
-- vbi

--
Microsoft is a national security concern.
-- Iranian govt. official, according to The Age
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/09/21/1095651288238.html
 

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