On Jan 15, 2008 4:32 AM, Nate Bargmann <n0nb@n0nb.us> wrote:
> Have you read Aaron Seigo's blogs on this topic? There is a reason
> they believe they had to do it now otherwise KDE 4.0.0 would remain an
> ongoing Beta much like the GNU HURD. Some things just don't happen
> until there is an actual .0 release. Friday's release has set a lot of
> good things in motion that wouldn't have happened, even though they
> readily admit that it is not feature complete and buggy.

What's so special about turning over the odometer prematurely that
couldn't have been accomplished better with a freeze?


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* Paul Johnson <baloo@ursine.ca> [2008 Jan 16 21:17 -0600]:
> On Jan 15, 2008 4:32 AM, Nate Bargmann <n0nb@n0nb.us> wrote:
> > Have you read Aaron Seigo's blogs on this topic? There is a reason
> > they believe they had to do it now otherwise KDE 4.0.0 would remain an
> > ongoing Beta much like the GNU HURD. Some things just don't happen
> > until there is an actual .0 release. Friday's release has set a lot of
> > good things in motion that wouldn't have happened, even though they
> > readily admit that it is not feature complete and buggy.
>
> What's so special about turning over the odometer prematurely that
> couldn't have been accomplished better with a freeze?

Ask them. I was just relaying some things I'd read over the past
month.

- Nate >>

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Hi,

2008 m. January 17 d., Thursday, Paul Johnson rašė:
> desktop
> icons are purely decorative and nonfunctional,
Indeed, they were functional (as in clickable and associated application would
open) in late rc2+svn builds. I'm not sure why kde devs disabled (or broke?)
this in 4.0.0 final. For the record, rc2 had no desktop icons at all.


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Modestas Vainius <modestas@vainius.eu>

El Jueves, 17 de Enero de 2008, Paul Johnson escribió:
> My first impressions of the new Konsole are fairly negative. *Are they
> trying to take a page from gnome-terminal's book with keybindings that
> are common in terminal programs. *"Hey, let's make the default
> keybinding for some obscure function we threw in because we got a
> single wishlist bug with a code snippet ALT+CTRL+L. *Nobody uses that
> for a frame refresh key or anything important ever!" *And what's with
> not being able to automatically resize the konsole back to your choice
> of standard terminal dimensions? *It's a remarkable step backwards.

Well, I don't have this particular concerns with konsole (I have others with
other applications), but anyway, I don't see what this has to do with what we
were talking about. I mean, your complaint was:

| I
| think the upstream KDE team was quite premature in calling it stable
| given some relatively basic stuff like configuring the panel are still
| missing.

And the fact that an application has changed stuff in a annoying way, doesn't
make it unstable. I mean, delaying the release even more, or calling 4.0.0 a
not stable desktop, would not change that.

It's also quite annoying to me the fact that Okular uses more horizontal space
than KPDF to display some icons, but that doesn't makes the application
unstable.

Even if most users had plenty of complaints in all applications, that's
EXACTLY the point in releasing 4.0.0: making real users test the
applications.

> I disagree. *If you're going to redo something as basic and taken for
> granted as kdesktop and kicker, it should at least do the basics like
> properly capture tray icons from things like wine and Google Desktop
> instead of displaying an empty space you can do nothing with where the
> icon should be.

Well, the only use I make of kdesltop, is displaying a nice wallpaper. Since
4.0.0 has some new and cool, plus all the good ones from 3.x, I don't miss
anything.

Kicker is a completely different story. I miss a lot of features, of course,
but the only significant one that I miss, is displaying only the tasks of the
active desktop.

With that said, I am probably in the situation that most users will be: using
KDE 3.5, because 4.0.0 is (in full) not enough for me. However, with the
release of KDE 4.0.0, I can replace KPDF with Okular, and the 4 version of
dolphin, konsole, kate, juk, and maybe others.

So in summary: yes, the situation is not optimal, but I think it's the less of
two evils.

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On Thursday 17 January 2008, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Jan 15, 2008 1:27 AM, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)
> <cobaco@skolelinux.no> wrote:
> > KDE4 is now at a point where:
> > - the basic frameworks are in place
> > - what's there works well enough for daily use
>
> I'm not sure that's quite there... the panel is not at all
> configurable, plasmoids cannot be dragged on/off the panel,

plasmoids can be dragged to the pannel from the 'add widgets' thingy in the
top right corner

dragging from the pannel <-> desktop doesn't currently work,
but that's the equivalent of having all the wiring done, but not having the
all the light switches for a particular light installed yet (i.e. the
switch next to the kitchen door is there, but the one next to the hallway
door isn't)

-> this is not a framework problem

> desktop icons are purely decorative and nonfunctional,

right-clicking something in the menu and choosing "add to desktop" works for
me, going through add widgets doesn't

-> as above

> and programs randomly disappear for no reason from the taskbar (The panel
> ate minimized windows a few times, the program didn't crash, I could still
> switch to it, it just stopped appearing in the taskbar).

haven't experienced this one, any particular pattern of when this happens?

> > So releasing now is IMHO a Good Thing
>
> It's a matter of semantics. KDE4 is beta material at best right now,
> and the KDE folks should call it as such. The KDE3 beta was
> essentially fully functional, and at least was a complete product by
> the time it made it to beta. I was using KDE3 well before it was
> released. KDE4 is incomplete and glitchy enough that if I were a part
> of that project, I'd be ashamed to have my name in the CREDITS for it
> at this point.

You should compare the KDE4 realease to the KDE2 one, not the KDE3 one
(KDE3 was a straight port of KDE2 to qt3, not a new set of frameworks,
keeping with the analogy: KDE3 was major redecorating, KDE4 is putting up a
new building

> > But yes, as it stands KDE3 is still the more comfortable house
> >
> > => if you expect KDE4 to mach the comfort of KDE3 it's to early to
> > switch, => if you're content with works but needs refinement, and are
> > willing to help (even if only by helping to find bugs and reporting
> > them) now is a good time to switch.
>
> Gotta have a pretty high tolerance to bugs and not mind KDE4 getting
> in the way of real work a good deal of time, though. Fair warning.

YMMV, and it is a .0 release, so yeah

Though for me, only konqueror is noticably buggy.
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Cheers, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)

On Thursday 17 January 2008, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Jan 15, 2008 3:18 AM, Alejandro Exojo <suy@badopi.org> wrote:
> > El Martes, 15 de Enero de 2008, Paul Johnson escribió:

> > Delaying more the release just because Plasma is not fully on par with
> > kdesktop and kicker, would be unfair to the rest of the projects inside
> > of KDE.
>
> I disagree.

> It's like if a contractor came to remodel, decided the floors were taking
> too long and said "We'll get around to finishing it in three weeks. In
> the meantime, just walk on the joists, you'll be fine. Just watch your
> step, it's 12 feet to the basement floor!"

KDE4 is not a remodeling, it's putting up a new building.

The release is the developpers saying the building structure is up (but we
still need to install a lot of switches, install carpet, paint the
walls, ...)
=> if you don't want to move in yet, stick with the old home for now
--
Cheers, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)