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Old 03-19-2012, 01:04 PM
Barry Hawkins
 
Default New work on java-package

To build upon several threads regarding java-package, I've played with
it on my side with the hope it could find his way back in debian (I
too need clean installs of Oracle java on debian, should it only be
because it's Oracle one and companies/people don't want to hear about
subtle differences, they want the one they used to use, the
one everybody use, the one they download and use on their windows, ...)


I put my fork on github for the moment :
https://github.com/cedricpineau/java-package

It consists of :
- last codebase of java-package (0.42)
- complete removal of previously supported jvm (blackdown, ibm, sun,
etc), to refocus the tool on tested and used contents
- addition of 32bits and 64bits Oracle 7 (jdk, jre, javadoc), with
iceweasel and chromium as supported navigators so far.


Do you, debian developpers and java-package authors, think this
"trimmed and renewed" version could be a new start for java-package ?
Is it desirable for debian to offer a tool that ease the use of non
free software like Oracle JVM ?
(http://lists.debian.org/debian-java/2011/09/msg00012.html)
Is it acceptable to keep the name but remove previous content, the way
I did it ?
Eventually, would someone be interested to sponsor me on this package
as I volunteer to keep working on it (java6, ..) ?


Best wishes to all, thanks for your advices.


--
Cédric


Cédric and Debian Java,
What a funny bit of timing! After a few years away from the project, I
have resumed using Debian for my Java development, and ran into issues
that made me want to start maintaining java-package again.


For those who don't know or remember me, I used to maintain java-package
(and quite a few others) for this team from 2004-2007. When my
children were born and I started my own company, my discretionary time
severely reduced, so I had to put my Open Source work for Debian on hold.


At DebConf 2006 when Mark Shuttleworth and Simon Phipps (of Sun
Microsystems at the time) announced the DLJ license for Java, many of us
were elated, since it would now finally be possible to have a full
JRE/JDK readily installable from the Debian non-free repository. Once
Java 5 and 6 were available via that route, java-package lost its purpose.


Then Oracle bought Sun Microsystems, and in Fall 2011 they decided to do
away with the DLJ. Honestly, I did not think it was that big of an
issue, since I was hearing such great stuff about OpenJDK.


However, as someone who makes a living actually writing applications and
systems in Java, I can tell you that OpenJDK is not sufficient for all
Java development and usage at this time. There are cases where
performance is critical that OpenJDK has yet to measure up to the Oracle
JDK, and when you talk about desktop applications and applets, the
disparity between the two is considerable.


For example, JetBrains IntelliJ IDEA, one of the main IDEs for Java
development, still doesn't endorse the use of OpenJDK. If you download
IDEA and launch it via a terminal, you will see the following warning:



~$ ./idea-IC-111.277/bin/idea.sh
OpenJDK Runtime Environment (IcedTea6 1.11pre) (6b24~pre2-1)
OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 20.0-b12, mixed mode)
OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 20.0-b12, mixed mode)
WARNING: You are launching IDE using OpenJDK Java runtime.

THIS IS STRICTLY UNSUPPORTED DUE TO KNOWN PERFORMANCE AND
GRAPHICS PROBLEMS!


NOTE: If you have both Oracle (Sun) JDK and OpenJDK installed
please validate either IDEA_JDK, JDK_HOME, or JAVA_HOME
environment variable points to valid Oracle (Sun) JDK installation.

See http://ow.ly/6TuKQ for more info on switching default JDK


Having been away for a few years, I need to come up to speed on the
changes to packaging policy and the workflow for package development
with the new Git repository, etc., but I'm sure it'll come back to me
quickly, like riding a bicycle. :-)


Regards,
--
Barry Hawkins
All Things Computed
email: barry@alltc.com
twitter: barryhawkins
blog: http://barryhawkins.com/blog
site: http://alltc.com


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Old 03-19-2012, 03:51 PM
Andrew Haley
 
Default New work on java-package

On 03/19/2012 02:04 PM, Barry Hawkins wrote:
> For example, JetBrains IntelliJ IDEA, one of the main IDEs for Java
> development, still doesn't endorse the use of OpenJDK. If you download
> IDEA and launch it via a terminal, you will see the following warning:
>
>
> ~$ ./idea-IC-111.277/bin/idea.sh
> OpenJDK Runtime Environment (IcedTea6 1.11pre) (6b24~pre2-1)
> OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 20.0-b12, mixed mode)
> OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 20.0-b12, mixed mode)
> WARNING: You are launching IDE using OpenJDK Java runtime.
>
> THIS IS STRICTLY UNSUPPORTED DUE TO KNOWN PERFORMANCE AND
> GRAPHICS PROBLEMS!
>
> NOTE: If you have both Oracle (Sun) JDK and OpenJDK installed
> please validate either IDEA_JDK, JDK_HOME, or JAVA_HOME
> environment variable points to valid Oracle (Sun) JDK installation.
> See http://ow.ly/6TuKQ for more info on switching default JDK

But that's their fault, not OpenJDK's; if there's actually anything
wrong with OpenJDK that stops IDEA working, that would be another
matter. I'd note that OpenJDK is the official Java SE 7 Reference
Implementation, so if IntelliJ IDEA doesn't even work with the RI,
it really is JetBrains' fault!

Andrew.


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Old 03-19-2012, 04:58 PM
Manfred Moser
 
Default New work on java-package

On 12-03-19 09:51 AM, Andrew Haley wrote:

On 03/19/2012 02:04 PM, Barry Hawkins wrote:

For example, JetBrains IntelliJ IDEA, one of the main IDEs for Java
development, still doesn't endorse the use of OpenJDK. If you download
IDEA and launch it via a terminal, you will see the following warning:


~$ ./idea-IC-111.277/bin/idea.sh
OpenJDK Runtime Environment (IcedTea6 1.11pre) (6b24~pre2-1)
OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 20.0-b12, mixed mode)
OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 20.0-b12, mixed mode)
WARNING: You are launching IDE using OpenJDK Java runtime.

THIS IS STRICTLY UNSUPPORTED DUE TO KNOWN PERFORMANCE AND
GRAPHICS PROBLEMS!

NOTE: If you have both Oracle (Sun) JDK and OpenJDK installed
please validate either IDEA_JDK, JDK_HOME, or JAVA_HOME
environment variable points to valid Oracle (Sun) JDK installation.
See http://ow.ly/6TuKQ for more info on switching default JDK

But that's their fault, not OpenJDK's; if there's actually anything
wrong with OpenJDK that stops IDEA working, that would be another
matter. I'd note that OpenJDK is the official Java SE 7 Reference
Implementation, so if IntelliJ IDEA doesn't even work with the RI,
it really is JetBrains' fault!

Andrew.


That is more of a warranty/support issue than anything else. I use it
every day with OpenJDK and it works fine..



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Old 03-19-2012, 06:11 PM
Barry Hawkins
 
Default New work on java-package

On 3/19/12 12:51 PM, Andrew Haley wrote:

On 03/19/2012 02:04 PM, Barry Hawkins wrote:

For example, JetBrains IntelliJ IDEA, one of the main IDEs for Java
development, still doesn't endorse the use of OpenJDK. If you download
IDEA and launch it via a terminal, you will see the following warning:


~$ ./idea-IC-111.277/bin/idea.sh
OpenJDK Runtime Environment (IcedTea6 1.11pre) (6b24~pre2-1)
OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 20.0-b12, mixed mode)
OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 20.0-b12, mixed mode)
WARNING: You are launching IDE using OpenJDK Java runtime.

THIS IS STRICTLY UNSUPPORTED DUE TO KNOWN PERFORMANCE AND
GRAPHICS PROBLEMS!

NOTE: If you have both Oracle (Sun) JDK and OpenJDK installed
please validate either IDEA_JDK, JDK_HOME, or JAVA_HOME
environment variable points to valid Oracle (Sun) JDK installation.
See http://ow.ly/6TuKQ for more info on switching default JDK


But that's their fault, not OpenJDK's; if there's actually anything
wrong with OpenJDK that stops IDEA working, that would be another
matter. I'd note that OpenJDK is the official Java SE 7 Reference
Implementation, so if IntelliJ IDEA doesn't even work with the RI,
it really is JetBrains' fault!

Andrew.



The focus of my message was to point out the need for users of Debian
and its derivatives to be able to install an official JRE or JDK from
Oracle. If I gave the impression of criticizing OpenJDK, my apologies;
that was not the intent.


Like so many others, I'll be happy when OpenJDK is the de facto choice
for all things based on the JVM. Currently, high performance and
graphical applications still see significant improvement when using the
Oracle JRE/JDK.


People are now using some less desirable approaches like the one
mentioned in a blog post from earlier in the year[0] which is not as
rigorous or disciplined as the approach we were taking when using
java-package years ago prior to the advent of the DLJ. I believe it
would be a service to our user community to provide the java-package
utility once more until the time when OpenJDK fully displaces Oracle's
non-free offering for all cases.


[0] -
http://blog.flexion.org/2012/01/16/install-sun-java-6-jre-jdk-from-deb-packages/


--
Barry Hawkins
All Things Computed
email: barry@alltc.com
twitter: barryhawkins
blog: http://barryhawkins.com/blog
site: http://alltc.com


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Old 03-20-2012, 10:41 AM
Andrew Haley
 
Default New work on java-package

On 03/19/2012 07:11 PM, Barry Hawkins wrote:
> The focus of my message was to point out the need for users of Debian
> and its derivatives to be able to install an official JRE or JDK from
> Oracle. If I gave the impression of criticizing OpenJDK, my apologies;
> that was not the intent.
>
> Like so many others, I'll be happy when OpenJDK is the de facto
> choice for all things based on the JVM. Currently, high performance
> and graphical applications still see significant improvement when
> using the Oracle JRE/JDK.

Comments like this are infuriating. I want to make OpenJDK
competitive, but I can't do anything with this because I don't know
what you're talking about. I can't reproduce the problem, so I can't
fix it. Is there anything more frustrating than being told there's
a problem, but not what it is? It's like something out of Kafka.

Actual specific problems with performance are something we can
address. Core performance differences are very few: It's the same VM.
Oracle does have a few magic optimized classes we don't have, and they
have a proprietary font renderer. We don't use Oracle's plugin.
There isn't much else.

> People are now using some less desirable approaches like the one
> mentioned in a blog post from earlier in the year[0] which is not as
> rigorous or disciplined as the approach we were taking when using
> java-package years ago prior to the advent of the DLJ. I believe it
> would be a service to our user community to provide the java-package
> utility once more until the time when OpenJDK fully displaces Oracle's
> non-free offering for all cases.

I understand, and I agree.

Andrew.


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Old 03-20-2012, 11:48 AM
Barry Hawkins
 
Default New work on java-package

On 3/20/12 7:41 AM, Andrew Haley wrote:

On 03/19/2012 07:11 PM, Barry Hawkins wrote:

The focus of my message was to point out the need for users of Debian
and its derivatives to be able to install an official JRE or JDK from
Oracle. If I gave the impression of criticizing OpenJDK, my apologies;
that was not the intent.

Like so many others, I'll be happy when OpenJDK is the de facto
choice for all things based on the JVM. Currently, high performance
and graphical applications still see significant improvement when
using the Oracle JRE/JDK.


Comments like this are infuriating. I want to make OpenJDK
competitive, but I can't do anything with this because I don't know
what you're talking about. I can't reproduce the problem, so I can't
fix it. Is there anything more frustrating than being told there's
a problem, but not what it is? It's like something out of Kafka.


I agree that it's frustrating. What I typically see happen is that a
client or colleague will try OpenJDK on CentOS or Ubuntu in production,
see performance issues, and switch back to the Oracle JDK without ever
considering a bug report or any sort of feedback to the OpenJDK project.
The issue typically manifests itself as a production issue, with urgent
priority, so once the switch back to the Oracle JDK has been made
there's a "crisis averted" sort of relief and they go back to their
normal routine on the job.


I should probably move this particular element to the OpenJDK channels,
as I think the discussion would benefit audiences beyond Debian Java.



Actual specific problems with performance are something we can
address. Core performance differences are very few: It's the same VM.
Oracle does have a few magic optimized classes we don't have, and they
have a proprietary font renderer. We don't use Oracle's plugin.
There isn't much else.


People are now using some less desirable approaches like the one
mentioned in a blog post from earlier in the year[0] which is not as
rigorous or disciplined as the approach we were taking when using
java-package years ago prior to the advent of the DLJ. I believe it
would be a service to our user community to provide the java-package
utility once more until the time when OpenJDK fully displaces Oracle's
non-free offering for all cases.


I understand, and I agree.

Andrew.


The term I used to use about java-package was that it was a "bridge
technology"[0], something to serve in a provisional manner until the
successor arrived.


[0] - http://barryhawkins.com/blog/2005/04/22/java-package-024-uploaded/

Cheers,
--
Barry Hawkins
All Things Computed
email: barry@alltc.com
twitter: barryhawkins
blog: http://barryhawkins.com/blog
site: http://alltc.com


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Old 03-20-2012, 05:02 PM
Cédric Pineau
 
Default New work on java-package

2012/3/19 Barry Hawkins <barry@hawkinsclan.com>






Having been away for a few years, I need to come up to speed on the changes to packaging policy and the workflow for package development with the new Git repository, etc., but I'm sure it'll come back to me quickly, like riding a bicycle. :-)






*Hello Barry,

*It's nice to see an original maintainer of java-package back on it. I hope you will like the changes I made to it :-)
*
*Current state of work is :
*- sources have moved to git (git.debian.org/git/pkg-java/java-package.git)



*- java-package 0.50 has been pushed to sid and wheezy (sponsored by Sylvestre Ledru)
*- I'm currently merging contributions I received on my github (https://github.com/cedricpineau/java-package). Mainly code and branding cleaning, support for oracle java6<u10 as well as future versions



*- I'm planning to add IBM java 6 and 7 packaging support (http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/java/jdk/linux/download.html)


*- I keep track of further improvement in the README file of the git repo :-)


*One important thing I did left behind for now because I don't get what has to be done for it, is Matthias Klose request : "install into a multiarch location to allow installing the i386 client vm on amd64 and ia64"


*I would appreciate if you Barry or anyone one this thread could give me tips on this !

--
Cédric
 
Old 03-20-2012, 06:53 PM
Barry Hawkins
 
Default New work on java-package

On 3/20/12 2:02 PM, Cédric Pineau wrote:
[...]

Hello Barry,

It's nice to see an original maintainer of java-package back on it. I
hope you will like the changes I made to it :-)

Current state of work is :
- sources have moved to git
(git.debian.org/git/pkg-java/java-package.git
<http://git.debian.org/git/pkg-java/java-package.git>)
- java-package 0.50 has been pushed to sid and wheezy (sponsored by
Sylvestre Ledru)
- I'm currently merging contributions I received on my github
(https://github.com/cedricpineau/java-package). Mainly code and branding
cleaning, support for oracle java6<u10 as well as future versions
- I'm planning to add IBM java 6 and 7 packaging support
(http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/java/jdk/linux/download.html)
- I keep track of further improvement in the README file of the git
repo :-)

One important thing I did left behind for now because I don't get what
has to be done for it, is Matthias Klose request : "install into a
multiarch location to allow installing the i386 client vm on amd64 and ia64"
I would appreciate if you Barry or anyone one this thread could give
me tips on this !

--
Cédric



Cédric,

I'll clone your github repo and take a look; is the original pkg-java
SVN repo available still? Getting an idea of the delta will help me
calibrate.


I'll look into the multiarch installation. It's very common to run
32-bit on 64-bit systems, especially when doing Java or Scala
development, as the smaller register size tends to be more responsive
with IDEs. I have conference engagements this week and next that take up
lots of my time, but I'll get started on my tooling, credentials, etc.
so I can dig back in.


Regards,
--
Barry Hawkins
All Things Computed
email: barry@alltc.com
twitter: barryhawkins
blog: http://barryhawkins.com/blog
site: http://alltc.com


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Old 03-20-2012, 07:10 PM
Matthias Klose
 
Default New work on java-package

On 20.03.2012 13:48, Barry Hawkins wrote:

On 3/20/12 7:41 AM, Andrew Haley wrote:

On 03/19/2012 07:11 PM, Barry Hawkins wrote:

The focus of my message was to point out the need for users of Debian
and its derivatives to be able to install an official JRE or JDK from
Oracle. If I gave the impression of criticizing OpenJDK, my apologies;
that was not the intent.

Like so many others, I'll be happy when OpenJDK is the de facto
choice for all things based on the JVM. Currently, high performance
and graphical applications still see significant improvement when
using the Oracle JRE/JDK.


Comments like this are infuriating. I want to make OpenJDK
competitive, but I can't do anything with this because I don't know
what you're talking about. I can't reproduce the problem, so I can't
fix it. Is there anything more frustrating than being told there's
a problem, but not what it is? It's like something out of Kafka.


I agree that it's frustrating. What I typically see happen is that a client or
colleague will try OpenJDK on CentOS or Ubuntu in production, see performance
issues, and switch back to the Oracle JDK without ever considering a bug report
or any sort of feedback to the OpenJDK project. The issue typically manifests
itself as a production issue, with urgent priority, so once the switch back to
the Oracle JDK has been made there's a "crisis averted" sort of relief and they
go back to their normal routine on the job.yo

I should probably move this particular element to the OpenJDK channels, as I
think the discussion would benefit audiences beyond Debian Java.


it won't help unless you are able to come up with a concrete example about the
performance issue which you claim to see.


you started with a complaint about an IDE (which hardly is any production
issue), now you point to another issue.



Actual specific problems with performance are something we can
address. Core performance differences are very few: It's the same VM.
Oracle does have a few magic optimized classes we don't have, and they
have a proprietary font renderer. We don't use Oracle's plugin.
There isn't much else.


CCing Xerxes here. He did point out that turning on another renderer does
improve performance in some cases.



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Old 03-20-2012, 07:28 PM
Cédric Pineau
 
Default New work on java-package

2012/3/20 Barry Hawkins <barry@alltc.com>


I'll clone your github repo and take a look; is the original pkg-java SVN repo available still? Getting an idea of the delta will help me calibrate.

*I'm afraid no. It has been deleted :-/


--
Cédric
 

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