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Old 07-06-2011, 10:56 AM
Wolodja Wentland
 
Default Clojure team or maintainence within pkg-java?

Hi all,

I am currently working with Phil and Daigo on getting Clojure into a better
shape on Debian and we primarily work on updating the clojure{,-contrib}
packages and getting leiningen into Debian.

We are unsure if it would make sense to create a new pkg-clojure team that
would, as of now, consist of the three of us or if it is a better idea to
maintain these packages within the Java team.

The people working on Scala formed their own team, but as Phil and I are quite
new to packaging we would "just" have a single DD in our team. What are your
thoughts? Do you mind to see all "based-on-JVM" languages maintained by the
Java team?

Our general tendency seems to be that we favour the creation of a new team,
but I would love to get some additional feedback.

Ta!
--
.'`. Wolodja Wentland <babilen@gmail.com>
: :' :
`. `'` 4096R/CAF14EFC
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Old 07-06-2011, 03:54 PM
Tom Marble
 
Default Clojure team or maintainence within pkg-java?

On 07/06/2011 05:56 AM, Wolodja Wentland wrote:
> I am currently working with Phil and Daigo on getting Clojure into a better
> shape on Debian and we primarily work on updating the clojure{,-contrib}
> packages and getting leiningen into Debian.
I've noticed Phil tweeting about Debian things and wondered what
was going on I really enjoyed his presentation on leiningen
at the Clojure Conj.

> We are unsure if it would make sense to create a new pkg-clojure team that
> would, as of now, consist of the three of us or if it is a better idea to
> maintain these packages within the Java team.
>
> The people working on Scala formed their own team, but as Phil and I are quite
> new to packaging we would "just" have a single DD in our team. What are your
> thoughts? Do you mind to see all "based-on-JVM" languages maintained by the
> Java team?
>
> Our general tendency seems to be that we favour the creation of a new team,
> but I would love to get some additional feedback.
My personal opinion is that it's too early to spin up a new
team and all the associated infrastructure. Let's work on
a design plan and implement the packaging first... It may
become clear after this that a new team is indeed justified --
esp. to handle bug triage.

While I'm quite impressed with leiningen and I'm certain that
it would very difficult to be a serious Clojure developer without
it, I feel we may need to rethink the approach for Debian.
Leiningen is very much like (and indeed dependent) upon maven
for resolving dependencies. This is an essential solution for
our friends stuck on platforms that do not have a native,
robust packaging system that handles interdependencies.

What would be ideal, I think, is to capture the metadata
in Clojure libraries and use it to metadata for Clojure Debian
packages... taking as much inspiration -- and code -- from
leiningen as possible. If we use leiningen directly we'll
probably have to disable live Internet downloading at build
time (as was done with maven) as this is against Debian policy.

Allow me to let you know about two related efforts:

1. Packaging Jigsaw for Debian.
This is part of our Google Summer of Code project
http://wiki.debian.org/SummerOfCode2011/Jigsaw
and involves adapting the (now JDK 8) modular JDK
to native Debian packaging. We have similar challenges:
we have a set of interdependent modules and metadata that
describes them.

2. Building Clojure experimental on Jigsaw
This is a personal interest of mine to build upon our Jigsaw
work... Most notably I hope to achieve:
- Better startup time for Clojure as we won't have to read
all of rt.jar (and friends)
- Better modularity of Clojure itself... This is actually fairly
advanced, but if we can refactor the clojure jars as well
that can fill the "modularity gap" between Jigsaw underneath
and the Clojure libraries (Leiningen) above.
- Exposing the new concurrency tools (Fork/Join) as
discussed by David Edgar Liebke in his Conj talk
"From Concurrency to Parallelism". So this might
require reviving the "par branch".
- Reviving the Tail Call Optimization patch to the JVM
and insuring the Clojure runtime exploits the
performance benefits of it.

Respectfully,

--Tom





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Old 07-06-2011, 05:47 PM
Phil Hagelberg
 
Default Clojure team or maintainence within pkg-java?

Tom Marble <tmarble@info9.net> writes:
> My personal opinion is that it's too early to spin up a new
> team and all the associated infrastructure. Let's work on
> a design plan and implement the packaging first... It may
> become clear after this that a new team is indeed justified --
> esp. to handle bug triage.

Sounds good to me. My only reservation is I'm only interested in a small
subset of the traffic on the pkg-java team, but I think that can be
solved with mail filters.

> What would be ideal, I think, is to capture the metadata
> in Clojure libraries and use it to metadata for Clojure Debian
> packages... taking as much inspiration -- and code -- from
> leiningen as possible. If we use leiningen directly we'll
> probably have to disable live Internet downloading at build
> time (as was done with maven) as this is against Debian policy.

In the long run, once we start seeing various applications written in
Clojure that end-users would be interested in using, we will need to
repackage up lots of Clojure libraries as .debs as you suggest. But
right now the only people who are interested in using Clojure on Debian
are Clojure developers. It only makes sense to start with developer
tools. We only have two people who have expressed interest in helping,
and even that has only been focused on the relatively small task of
getting Leiningen and its four dependencies into the repositories, so
let's not over-extend our reach with premature packaging.

-Phil


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Old 07-06-2011, 08:55 PM
Wolodja Wentland
 
Default Clojure team or maintainence within pkg-java?

On Wed, Jul 06, 2011 at 10:47 -0700, Phil Hagelberg wrote:
> Tom Marble <tmarble@info9.net> writes:

> > My personal opinion is that it's too early to spin up a new
> > team and all the associated infrastructure. Let's work on
> > a design plan and implement the packaging first... It may
> > become clear after this that a new team is indeed justified --
> > esp. to handle bug triage.

> Sounds good to me. My only reservation is I'm only interested in a small
> subset of the traffic on the pkg-java team, but I think that can be
> solved with mail filters.

Same here.

Does this mean that it is OK if we proceed to list pkg-java-maintainers as
maintainers and ourselves as Uploaders? Or would others actually like to see
the creation of a Clojure specific team with all the infrastructure that comes
with it?

[ future packaging ideas ]
> In the long run, once we start seeing various applications written in
> Clojure that end-users would be interested in using, we will need to
> repackage up lots of Clojure libraries as .debs as you suggest.

I guess that it would be nice to have some helper scripts for Clojure too as
javahelper is not 100% applicable.

> But right now the only people who are interested in using Clojure on Debian
> are Clojure developers. It only makes sense to start with developer tools.
> We only have two people who have expressed interest in helping, and even
> that has only been focused on the relatively small task of getting Leiningen
> and its four dependencies into the repositories, so let's not over-extend
> our reach with premature packaging.

+1
--
.'`. Wolodja Wentland <babilen@gmail.com>
: :' :
`. `'` 4096R/CAF14EFC
`- 081C B7CD FF04 2BA9 94EA 36B2 8B7F 7D30 CAF1 4EFC
 
Old 07-06-2011, 10:36 PM
Ludovic Claude
 
Default Clojure team or maintainence within pkg-java?

Hello Closure people,

On 06/07/2011 17:54, Tom Marble wrote:
> What would be ideal, I think, is to capture the metadata
> in Clojure libraries and use it to metadata for Clojure Debian
> packages... taking as much inspiration -- and code -- from
> leiningen as possible. If we use leiningen directly we'll
> probably have to disable live Internet downloading at build
> time (as was done with maven) as this is against Debian policy.
>

I don't know much about Closure or Leiningen, but lots about Maven.
As Leiningen is built on Maven, it would make sense to reuse and adapt
what has been done in the maven-repo-helper and maven-debian-helper
packages.

As the syntax for the project configuration is closure instead of XML,
this would require some work as we do lots of mangling of Maven POM
files before putting them in the Maven repository for Debian - to allow
painless upgrades in particular -, but this sounds possible.

In particular, there is a Sonatype project - Polyglot Maven - which aims
to allow users to write POM files into their own language. The Closure
version looks very much like what is in Leiningen
(http://polyglot.sonatype.org/clojure.html), so I hope that they are
compatible and that we could use more libraries from Maven to read those
files and adapt them to our needs.

Anyway contact me if you want to start brainstorming on that subject.

Ludovic


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Old 07-06-2011, 10:36 PM
Ludovic Claude
 
Default Clojure team or maintainence within pkg-java?

Hello Closure people,

On 06/07/2011 17:54, Tom Marble wrote:
> What would be ideal, I think, is to capture the metadata
> in Clojure libraries and use it to metadata for Clojure Debian
> packages... taking as much inspiration -- and code -- from
> leiningen as possible. If we use leiningen directly we'll
> probably have to disable live Internet downloading at build
> time (as was done with maven) as this is against Debian policy.
>

I don't know much about Closure or Leiningen, but lots about Maven.
As Leiningen is built on Maven, it would make sense to reuse and adapt
what has been done in the maven-repo-helper and maven-debian-helper
packages.

As the syntax for the project configuration is closure instead of XML,
this would require some work as we do lots of mangling of Maven POM
files before putting them in the Maven repository for Debian - to allow
painless upgrades in particular -, but this sounds possible.

In particular, there is a Sonatype project - Polyglot Maven - which aims
to allow users to write POM files into their own language. The Closure
version looks very much like what is in Leiningen
(http://polyglot.sonatype.org/clojure.html), so I hope that they are
compatible and that we could use more libraries from Maven to read those
files and adapt them to our needs.

Anyway contact me if you want to start brainstorming on that subject.

Ludovic


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Old 07-06-2011, 11:31 PM
Phil Hagelberg
 
Default Clojure team or maintainence within pkg-java?

Ludovic Claude <ludovic.claude@laposte.net> writes:

> I don't know much about Closure or Leiningen, but lots about Maven.
> As Leiningen is built on Maven, it would make sense to reuse and adapt
> what has been done in the maven-repo-helper and maven-debian-helper
> packages.

Maybe in the future. But right now nobody is talking about packaging
anything that uses Leiningen; we are talking about packaging Leiningen
itself. So I don't really see how this is relevant; maybe I'm missing
something?

> In particular, there is a Sonatype project - Polyglot Maven - which aims
> to allow users to write POM files into their own language. The Closure
> version looks very much like what is in Leiningen
> (http://polyglot.sonatype.org/clojure.html), so I hope that they are
> compatible and that we could use more libraries from Maven to read those
> files and adapt them to our needs.

The Polyglot Maven format is based on defproject from Leiningen, but
nobody really uses it from what I can tell. I believe its original
authors have ceased work on it, at least for the Clojure variant. It
would probably be easier to just make tweaks to Leiningen itself to
respect the Debian /usr/share/maven-repo repository if at some time in
the future we want to package Clojure applications or libraries. The
similarity between Polyglot Maven and Leiningen is mostly superficial;
configuration can only be shared in the most trivial of cases.

-Phil


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