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Old 02-10-2011, 04:23 AM
tony mancill
 
Default Setting goals for Wheezy

On 02/09/2011 05:26 AM, Stefane Fermigier wrote:
>
> On Feb 9, 2011, at 11:55 AM, James Page wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> Appreciate that I have been *absolutely* silent on this mailing list
>> since I joined but I would like to get more involved in Java packaging
>> for Debian and have a few opinions on some of this thread.
>>
>> On Tue, 2011-02-08 at 17:07 +0100, Torsten Werner wrote:
>>> - Ship more pom files.
>>
>> +1 on this for me.
>>
>> Maybe installation of Maven artifacts into /usr/share/maven-repo should
>> become part of the Debian Java Library Policy as it is
>> for /usr/share/java?
>>
>> This would really help out when the Java Libraries in Debian mature to a
>> point where packaging of larger applications such as Jenkins, JEE Apps
>> Servers etc... is feasible as the majority of larger Java projects seem
>> to be using Maven these days.
>
> Indeed
>
>>> - Set up a real Maven repo based on our packages. Dak may help, too.
>>
>> This is something that we discussed at the Ubuntu Developer Summit last
>> October in one of the Java Development Toolset sessions. Having this
>> type of service would potentially really help upstreams who are not
>> packaging for Debian align to versions of Java libraries already
>> packaged which could make things much easier going forward.
>
> Great. I can provide a whole list of packages that are needed to build Nuxeo. All 583 of them. See below.
>
> This includes both direct build-time dependencies, and transitive runtime dependencies, but not all the transitive build-time dependencies needed to build all these dependencies, so I guess the total number of dependencies needed is probably 2 to 10 times larger.
>
> So yes, I'm sure this kind of service can help, but I'm not sure it can really bring us as far as we'd like to.

I think the Maven repo will be a great step forward, and know that multiple
versions of the same library libraries will co-exist in the repo. However, it
seems like it would be a disservice to the community if we allowed it fill up
with just any cruft. As an example, picking through the supplied list of build
dependencies:

> ./oro/oro/2.0.7/oro-2.0.7.jar
> ./oro/oro/2.0.8/oro-2.0.8.jar

I checked the upstream changelog and 2.0.8 is simply a bug-fix release of 2.0.7.
There was also a minor bit of refactoring in the build.xml regarding the output
folder for the examples and migration tools (there were moved into their own
package), but that's it. And the last change to the library was in December of
2003.

Other examples which appear to be minimally different and should be trivial to
switch to the newer version:

> ./stax/stax-api/1.0/stax-api-1.0.jar
> ./stax/stax-api/1.0.1/stax-api-1.0.1.jar

> ./org/apache/ant/ant/1.7.0/ant-1.7.0.jar
> ./org/apache/ant/ant/1.7.1/ant-1.7.1.jar

> ./org/apache/ant/ant-launcher/1.7.0/ant-launcher-1.7.0.jar
> ./org/apache/ant/ant-launcher/1.7.1/ant-launcher-1.7.1.jar

> ./org/codehaus/plexus/plexus-archiver/1.0-alpha-12/plexus-archiver-1.0-alpha-12.jar
> ./org/codehaus/plexus/plexus-archiver/1.0-alpha-7/plexus-archiver-1.0-alpha-7.jar
> ./org/codehaus/plexus/plexus-archiver/1.0-alpha-9/plexus-archiver-1.0-alpha-9.jar

These for xmlbeans, these are the same JAR, no?

> ./org/apache/xmlbeans/2.3.0/xmlbeans-2.3.0.jar
> ./org/apache/xmlbeans/xmlbeans/2.3.0/xmlbeans-2.3.0.jar

This isn't to say that there aren't still quite a number of dependencies where
multiple versions of the libraries are warranted, or that the problem is somehow
now simple - it's not. It is only to suggest that the Debian repo shouldn't
become a snapshot machine, and that it is possible for projects to accumulate
technical debt by depending on strict version numbers. That is, there are good
reasons to actively cull for and remove cruft. (Am I'm missing the point?)

Thanks,
tony


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Old 02-10-2011, 06:42 AM
Niels Thykier
 
Default Setting goals for Wheezy

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 2011-02-09 00:17, Damien Raude-Morvan wrote:
> Hi,
>
> [...]
> My other goals are :
> - improve relationship with Debian Science (as they use more and more Java
> software)
> [...]
> - work on Maven 3.x and integration with dh 7/8

That sounds good!

> - work on Lintian to include some Java check (or some other tool ?)



lintian (2.5.0) UNRELEASED; urgency=low

* Summary of tag changes:
+ Added:
- build-depends-on-specific-java-doc-package
- depends-on-specific-java-doc-package
[...]
- needless-dependency-on-jre
[...]

Way ahead of you! XD Though help and ideas are much appreciated!

~Niels

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Old 02-10-2011, 06:47 AM
Sylvestre Ledru
 
Default Setting goals for Wheezy

Le jeudi 10 février 2011 à 08:42 +0100, Niels Thykier a écrit :
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On 2011-02-09 00:17, Damien Raude-Morvan wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > - work on Lintian to include some Java check (or some other tool ?)
>
>
>
> lintian (2.5.0) UNRELEASED; urgency=low
>
> * Summary of tag changes:
> + Added:
> - build-depends-on-specific-java-doc-package
> - depends-on-specific-java-doc-package
> [...]
> - needless-dependency-on-jre
> [...]
That is a great news! I am looking forward to see much more of these...
Looks like we (the Java team) will be busy with the few packages we
have.
Thanks for sharing!

Sylvestre



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Old 02-10-2011, 07:57 AM
Stefane Fermigier
 
Default Setting goals for Wheezy

On Feb 10, 2011, at 6:23 AM, tony mancill wrote:

> On 02/09/2011 05:26 AM, Stefane Fermigier wrote:
>> So yes, I'm sure this kind of service can help, but I'm not sure it can really bring us as far as we'd like to.
>
> I think the Maven repo will be a great step forward, and know that multiple
> versions of the same library libraries will co-exist in the repo. However, it
> seems like it would be a disservice to the community if we allowed it fill up
> with just any cruft. As an example, picking through the supplied list of build
> dependencies:
>
>> ./oro/oro/2.0.7/oro-2.0.7.jar
>> ./oro/oro/2.0.8/oro-2.0.8.jar
>
> I checked the upstream changelog and 2.0.8 is simply a bug-fix release of 2.0.7.
> There was also a minor bit of refactoring in the build.xml regarding the output
> folder for the examples and migration tools (there were moved into their own
> package), but that's it. And the last change to the library was in December of
> 2003.

Indeed. We only ship 2.0.8 in the product, and our poms only depends on 2.0.8.

2.0.7 seems to be needed by Maven itself, or one of its plugins.

> Other examples which appear to be minimally different and should be trivial to
> switch to the newer version:
>
>> ./stax/stax-api/1.0/stax-api-1.0.jar
>> ./stax/stax-api/1.0.1/stax-api-1.0.1.jar
>
>> ./org/apache/ant/ant/1.7.0/ant-1.7.0.jar
>> ./org/apache/ant/ant/1.7.1/ant-1.7.1.jar
>
>> ./org/apache/ant/ant-launcher/1.7.0/ant-launcher-1.7.0.jar
>> ./org/apache/ant/ant-launcher/1.7.1/ant-launcher-1.7.1.jar

Same.

>> ./org/codehaus/plexus/plexus-archiver/1.0-alpha-12/plexus-archiver-1.0-alpha-12.jar
>> ./org/codehaus/plexus/plexus-archiver/1.0-alpha-7/plexus-archiver-1.0-alpha-7.jar
>> ./org/codehaus/plexus/plexus-archiver/1.0-alpha-9/plexus-archiver-1.0-alpha-9.jar

In this case, we don't event ship plexus. Plexus is only needed by Maven.

> These for xmlbeans, these are the same JAR, no?
>
>> ./org/apache/xmlbeans/2.3.0/xmlbeans-2.3.0.jar
>> ./org/apache/xmlbeans/xmlbeans/2.3.0/xmlbeans-2.3.0.jar

Same jar under two different names.

One (the one using the standard group and artifact naming scheme) is needed by us. The other one is needed by one of the dependencies.

We only ship one of them, eventually.

> This isn't to say that there aren't still quite a number of dependencies where
> multiple versions of the libraries are warranted, or that the problem is somehow
> now simple - it's not. It is only to suggest that the Debian repo shouldn't
> become a snapshot machine,

This is what I've been saying all along, actually.

> and that it is possible for projects to accumulate
> technical debt by depending on strict version numbers.

OTOH, this is a HUGE source of instability and hard to debug bugs (as we've found to our expense) to depend on loose version numbers.

> That is, there are good
> reasons to actively cull for and remove cruft. (Am I'm missing the point?)

Not entirely

Anyway, the cruft is not on our side (Nuxeo). While there may be still a few redundancies, we've spent a fait amount trying to make sure that there is only version of each library used for the build.

But we don't have control about the transitive dependencies's dependencies, nor the Maven ecosystems'.

S.

--
Stefane Fermigier, Founder and Chairman, Nuxeo
Open Source, Java EE based, Enterprise Content Management (ECM)
http://www.nuxeo.com/ - +33 1 40 33 79 87 - http://twitter.com/sfermigier
Join the Nuxeo Group on LinkedIn: http://linkedin.com/groups?gid=43314
New Nuxeo release: http://nuxeo.com/dm54
"There's no such thing as can't. You always have a choice."


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Old 02-10-2011, 10:17 PM
Ludovic Claude
 
Default Setting goals for Wheezy

Hello,

Here are my goals for this year:

- keep working on maven-debian-helper and in particular mh_make.
The goal is to make it as trivial as possible to create a Debian package
from a project which uses Maven as its build tool. The current version
in experimental is already working well, but there are still some quirks
to iron out. There is still lots of work to be done before we'll be able
to package Nuxeo, but something smaller like one full appserver stack
should be doable by the end of the year.
- transition maven-repo-helper and maven-debian-helper to dh 7. CDBS is
fine, but dh 7 is now trendy and probably simpler to understand for Java
developers (read: not make gurus). Plus it seems faster and the build
output is much clearer.
- package Maven 3 (work started, uses maven-debian-helper improvements)
- setup a real Maven repository in Debian. There is one big transition
that we will need to do there: at the moment, to ease the upgrade of
dependencies, we use 'symlink' versions in the Maven POMs (for example,
we replace 3.1 with 3.x). This creates something which works but looks
very hacky to a Java developer, so no good Java developer will want to
use such a repository (I won't!). The solution is to use version ranges,
so we would replace 3.1 with [3.1,4.0) and the version of the library in
the repository would still be 3.1. This requires Maven 3.0 or even 3.1
to work, older versions have issues with version ranges. Also, we need
to align the versions with the OSGi conventions, a good thing as OSGi
promotes best pratices such as enforcing API compatibility during minor
version upgrades.
- create repositories for OSGi, in the form of a P2 or OBR repository,
and push for more libraries to include the necessary OSGi metadata
- clarify how to package WAR and EAR applications, and provide tooling
for Maven.
- become a DD and push as much stuff as I can in the repository.

Ludovic

On 09/02/11 00:17, Damien Raude-Morvan wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've some overlap with your own goals Torsten
>
> Le mardi 08 février 2011 17:07:13, Torsten Werner a écrit :
>> - Port openjdk to kfreebsd with either hotspot or jamvm.
> kibi, tuco and I tried and, AFAIK, we all failed.
> Have you started working on this ? from upstream "bsd-port" mercurial forest ?
>
>> - OpenJDK 7?
> I've worked a bit in this recently.
> Debian packaging (largely based on doko work) is here:
> https://code.launchpad.net/~openjdk/openjdk/openjdk7
> Some "preview" packages are available on my people.d.o :
> http://people.debian.org/~drazzib/debian/experimental/
> (with only hotspot, cacao/shark/zero currently FTBFS)
>
>> - Set up a real Maven repo based on our packages. Dak may help, too.
> What's your plan regarding DAK on this subject ?
> I've started looking at Maven Indexer to crawl over all pom.xml in
> /usr/share/maven-repo/
> (https://docs.sonatype.org/display/M2ECLIPSE/Nexus+Indexer)
>
> My other goals are :
> - improve relationship with Debian Science (as they use more and more Java
> software)
> - package some CI (Continuous Integration) tools like Nexus, Hudson, Sonar and
> some essentials plugins
> - work on Liferay 6.x
> - help with Netbeans 6.x or 7.x package
> - work on Maven 3.x and integration with dh 7/8
> - work on Lintian to include some Java check (or some other tool ?)
>
> Cheers,


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Old 02-10-2011, 11:13 PM
Russ Allbery
 
Default Setting goals for Wheezy

I'm sadly still mostly not working on Debian due to a huge day job push,
but the good news from the Debian Java perspective is that the huge push
is in absorbing a bunch of Java applications (both web applications and
long-running daemons) from another part of our organization. That means
that I'm getting a crash course in Java, and have now developed a couple
of Spring-based Java applications, including a webapp, and have been
deploying a whole pile of occasionally quite complex applications.

My goal for wheezy is to start turning that experience into policy,
helpers, and supporting packages for Debian. In particular, I want to
pursue DEP-7 and webapp deployment in Debian, since what we're doing
internally right now in deploying an init script to start Tomcat
separately for each application is horrible. I also want to get as many
of our upstream dependencies for our applications packaged properly for
Debian as I can. We're using Maven 2 for all our applications, and I want
to build our internal packages following Debian policy, so I want to
understand how Maven-based packaging is currently implemented and see if I
can help with enhancing it.

Separately, we run a federated identity system called Shibboleth, and the
identity provider component is a large Tomcat application with lots of
dependencies. I would like to work with the Shibboleth and Java teams to
get that software packaged properly for Debian.

--
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>


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Old 02-11-2011, 05:29 AM
Torsten Werner
 
Default Setting goals for Wheezy

Hi Ludovic,

On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 12:17 AM, Ludovic Claude
<ludovic.claude@laposte.net> wrote:
> The current version in experimental is already

... in unstable.

Cheers,
Torsten


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Old 02-12-2011, 03:02 PM
Niels Thykier
 
Default Setting goals for Wheezy

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 2011-02-08 15:06, Niels Thykier wrote:
> Hey
>
> Now that Squeeze is out, I was thinking that we could look at some of
> the things that we would like to get done for Wheezy. During Squeeze I
> compiled a short list of things I would have liked to have done for
> Squeeze or things that appeared very interesting but clearly beyond the
> Squeeze time frame.
> The list is not ordered in any particular order:
>
> - Java library transitions
> - jarwrapper on kfreebsd.
> - DEP-7
> - Auto java -> native compile on end user systems.
> (getting rid of the need for -gcj packages)
> - get rid of default-jdk-builddep
> - servlet2.{3,4} removal (#581024)
> - upgrade/removal of outdated/old/retired packages
> (guessed based reverse dependencies)
> * RM: xml-crimson, libswidgets-java, libtoolbar-java, libgef-java
> * Upgrade: png-sixlegs, pentaho-reporting-flow-engine, libxml-java,
> libswirl-java, libsaxon-java, libjazzy-java
>
> If you have anything else you would like to see, feel free to follow up
> with that; if you are interested in being coordinator for a particular
> task that is even better!
>
> Let me know what you think of this.
>
> ~Niels
>


To follow up on this; I have created [1] to keep track of Goals for
Wheezy and who is the driver/coordinator behind them. For now a lot of
them has "possible X?"; I did this when I was not certain if the
particular person/people were ready to commit themselves to it (or when
I was not sure who is doing the task etc.).
If you are not prepared to do it right now, feel free to unassign
yourself and then take it later when time permits (assuming no one else
took it of course).

Feel free to update this page as needed; I did not write down all the
goals I found - turns out we have a lot of these, which is great. Of
course it is best if we can finish them as well.

Matthew, I have marked the two of us as (possible) drivers behind Java
Library Transitions and jarwrapper on kfreebsd!

Ludovic, I am also interested in the OSGi repository and would like to
be co-driver on this. But if you prefer we can stall it till after the
maven repository etc.

If there is something you believe is sufficiently important, perhaps we
can try to make it an official release goal of Wheezy.

~Niels

[1] http://wiki.debian.org/DebianJavaReleaseGoals

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Old 02-15-2011, 03:53 PM
Matthias Klose
 
Default Setting goals for Wheezy

On 09.02.2011 13:28, Torsten Werner wrote:

Hi,

Am 09.02.2011 00:17, schrieb Damien Raude-Morvan:

I've some overlap with your own goals Torsten


that's good. You can take my tasks.


kibi, tuco and I tried and, AFAIK, we all failed.
Have you started working on this ? from upstream "bsd-port" mercurial forest ?


I've started with the usual Linux 'port' and adapted it for kfreebsd. I
could build the hotspot vm but it crashed during initialization. I've
lost my interest when I did not found a way to build the vm with
debugging symbols. Any ideas how to build it with debugging symbols?


it should be built with debug symbols by default.
debian/patches/gcc-hotspot-opt-O0.diff builds hotspot with -O0.

this kind of discussion should happen on the IcedTea ML too. See
http://icedtea.classpath.org/


what are the reasons not to use the bsd-port and integrate it in IcedTea?

Matthias


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Old 02-15-2011, 03:56 PM
Matthias Klose
 
Default Setting goals for Wheezy

On 09.02.2011 00:17, Damien Raude-Morvan wrote:

Hi,

I've some overlap with your own goals Torsten

Le mardi 08 février 2011 17:07:13, Torsten Werner a écrit :

- Port openjdk to kfreebsd with either hotspot or jamvm.

kibi, tuco and I tried and, AFAIK, we all failed.
Have you started working on this ? from upstream "bsd-port" mercurial forest ?


- OpenJDK 7?

I've worked a bit in this recently.
Debian packaging (largely based on doko work) is here:
https://code.launchpad.net/~openjdk/openjdk/openjdk7
Some "preview" packages are available on my people.d.o :
http://people.debian.org/~drazzib/debian/experimental/
(with only hotspot, cacao/shark/zero currently FTBFS)


please use 7~b129 and the like version numbers, definitely before uploading to
experimental.



- work on Maven 3.x and integration with dh 7/8


is there an estimate/overview which packages need updates, and when you think
this work will happen?


Matthias


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