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Old 01-07-2008, 10:58 AM
Michelle Konzack
 
Default New Mailserver...

Hello,

after a powercut and a following overvoltage my APC UPS (3kVA with 1 EXB)
was gone and my @home Mailserver with it...

It was an AMD Sempron 2200+ with 1 GByte of memory, an older AMI Megaraid
Enterprise 1200 (with one Raid-1 + Hotfix using three DDRS-39130 for OS
and one Raid-5 for the Mailstorage using five 18 GByte IBM disks)

Currently I am using a reserve mainboard (P2/366/512) which can not
handel more then 5000 messages per day... :-/

Now I want to rebuild the Server from scratch using Etch with the courier
suite, fetchmail, procmail, clamav-ng, spamassassin, apache2 and php.

I like to continue using SCSI drives (or maybe WD Raptor SATA) since I
have had a very negative experience using PATA disks for a courier server
because the traffic produced by the maildir is realy heavy for the disks.

Since the Mailserver is my dedicated @home Mailserver which do automated
mail-processing (arround 40000 messages per day but maybe increasing
specialy by spam attacs) I like to go as cheap as possibel but want to
have enough reserves in case of problems like spam.

My preference is on AMD 64bit CPU's (I think, the programs above should
not have anny problems with amd64) and I like to know, what you can
suggest.

The smallest WD Raptor drives are 36 GByte which mean, I need at least
7 of them but maybe I will go with a 3w9560-8 which can do Raid-6 (for
the Mailstorage). The problem will be only the price for the disks
(800 Euro) and for the controller (800 Euro) since mainboards and CPU's
plus Memory are going cheap.

My limit is currently by arround 1500 Euro.

Note: My mailstore is now over 18 million messages with 43 users and my
SDSL line support only 3.5 MBit.

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack


--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
0033/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)
 
Old 01-08-2008, 03:34 PM
randall
 
Default New Mailserver...

i think you have a 1000 options here, but here is basically what i do

the new barracude 7200.11 or es.2 disks are pretty competitive compared
to the raptors in performance, and they also give you a lot more space
for your Euro. (250GB for 74 Euro a piece) i personnally use 4 x 500GB
in a RAID6 (about 100 something a piece)
you might consider dropping the raid controller and go with linux
software raid instead, altough the software raid will give you less
performance, but you can sort of compensate this by spending an extra
100 or 200 on your processor instead (i use the q6600)


besides personal preference and insight, you might want to re consider
the software vs hardware raid, i just find the kernel more reliable and
forgiving then any controller.




Michelle Konzack wrote:

Hello,

after a powercut and a following overvoltage my APC UPS (3kVA with 1 EXB)
was gone and my @home Mailserver with it...

It was an AMD Sempron 2200+ with 1 GByte of memory, an older AMI Megaraid
Enterprise 1200 (with one Raid-1 + Hotfix using three DDRS-39130 for OS
and one Raid-5 for the Mailstorage using five 18 GByte IBM disks)

Currently I am using a reserve mainboard (P2/366/512) which can not
handel more then 5000 messages per day... :-/

Now I want to rebuild the Server from scratch using Etch with the courier
suite, fetchmail, procmail, clamav-ng, spamassassin, apache2 and php.

I like to continue using SCSI drives (or maybe WD Raptor SATA) since I
have had a very negative experience using PATA disks for a courier server
because the traffic produced by the maildir is realy heavy for the disks.

Since the Mailserver is my dedicated @home Mailserver which do automated
mail-processing (arround 40000 messages per day but maybe increasing
specialy by spam attacs) I like to go as cheap as possibel but want to
have enough reserves in case of problems like spam.

My preference is on AMD 64bit CPU's (I think, the programs above should
not have anny problems with amd64) and I like to know, what you can
suggest.

The smallest WD Raptor drives are 36 GByte which mean, I need at least
7 of them but maybe I will go with a 3w9560-8 which can do Raid-6 (for
the Mailstorage). The problem will be only the price for the disks
(800 Euro) and for the controller (800 Euro) since mainboards and CPU's
plus Memory are going cheap.

My limit is currently by arround 1500 Euro.

Note: My mailstore is now over 18 million messages with 43 users and my
SDSL line support only 3.5 MBit.

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack






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Old 01-08-2008, 11:59 PM
Jean-Paul Blaquiere
 
Default New Mailserver...

> On Jan 08, randall illuminated :

> besides personal preference and insight, you might want to re consider
> the software vs hardware raid, i just find the kernel more reliable and
> forgiving then any controller.
>
one of the major reasons I use software raid on small end systems (like
home/soho), is that in the case of major hardware failure, like your
RAID card, you can just drop the disks into a new server and it all
'just works', instead of having to find an identical RAID card ....


./jp
--
Jean-Paul Blaquiere
jeanpaul@blaquiere.id.au
http://www.blaquiere.id.au
http://japester.ucc.asn.au/


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Old 01-09-2008, 12:39 AM
Roberto C. Sánchez
 
Default New Mailserver...

On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 09:59:37AM +0900, Jean-Paul Blaquiere wrote:
> > On Jan 08, randall illuminated :
>
> > besides personal preference and insight, you might want to re consider
> > the software vs hardware raid, i just find the kernel more reliable and
> > forgiving then any controller.
> >
> one of the major reasons I use software raid on small end systems (like
> home/soho), is that in the case of major hardware failure, like your
> RAID card, you can just drop the disks into a new server and it all
> 'just works', instead of having to find an identical RAID card ....
>
Or keeping one or more spares on hand.

Regards,

-Roberto

--
Roberto C. Sánchez
http://people.connexer.com/~roberto
http://www.connexer.com
 
Old 01-09-2008, 01:15 AM
Jean-Paul Blaquiere
 
Default New Mailserver...

> On Jan 08, Roberto C. S?nchez illuminated :

> Or keeping one or more spares on hand.
>
if you feel like keeping an EU$800 card lying around, sure.
That is the correct option, if you can afford it.


./jp
--
Jean-Paul Blaquiere
jeanpaul@blaquiere.id.au
http://www.blaquiere.id.au
http://japester.ucc.asn.au/


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Old 01-09-2008, 10:47 AM
Roberto C. Sánchez
 
Default New Mailserver...

On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 11:15:40AM +0900, Jean-Paul Blaquiere wrote:
> > On Jan 08, Roberto C. S?nchez illuminated :
>
> > Or keeping one or more spares on hand.
> >
> if you feel like keeping an EU$800 card lying around, sure.
> That is the correct option, if you can afford it.
>
That was sort of my point with regard to using software RAID. It keeps
from having to do that.

Regards,

-Roberto

--
Roberto C. Sánchez
http://people.connexer.com/~roberto
http://www.connexer.com
 
Old 01-09-2008, 01:25 PM
randall
 
Default New Mailserver...

Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:

On Wed, Jan 09, 2008 at 11:15:40AM +0900, Jean-Paul Blaquiere wrote:


On Jan 08, Roberto C. S?nchez illuminated :

Or keeping one or more spares on hand.




if you feel like keeping an EU$800 card lying around, sure.
That is the correct option, if you can afford it.



That was sort of my point with regard to using software RAID. It keeps
from having to do that.

Regards,

-Roberto


i just remembered i still had my list, below setup was about 2800,-euro,
but that includes

ups
spare parts
2 extra terrabyte disks for back-up storage
8 GB Ram (i use Xen for virtualisation and it is not only a mail server
hence the ridicilous amount)
and an outragous pc case wich is strangely enough the only model that
fits
if you skip some of the things you don't need i'm sure you can do a nice
set up for about 1500,-



1 x Asus P5K WS

1 x Thermaltake Mozart TX

1 x Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 G0

1 x Asus DVD-RW DRW-1814BL IDE

4 x Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 500 GB

2 x Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 1 TB

1 x APC Back-UPS RS 1500

4 x G.Skill DDR2 Dual Channel 1024 MB, PC6400, 800 MHz

1 x Seasonic M12-600 600 Watt

1 x Asus VGA GeForce 7300GS 256 MB

1 x Eminent Extern 56Kbps Hardware Modem


the Asus motherboard has 2 x 1Gb onboard ethernet cards

we also have some spare parts stand by, so in case of hardware breakage
anyone a little handy with a screwdriver and some directions for
diagnostics should be able to get the system going again in under an hour



1 x Asus P5K WS

1 x Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 G0

1 x Seasonic M12-600 600 Watt

1 x Asus VGA GeForce 7300GS 256 MB

1 x Eminent Extern 56Kbps Hardware Modem





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Old 01-09-2008, 05:13 PM
Michelle Konzack
 
Default New Mailserver...

Am 2008-01-08 17:34:03, schrieb randall:
> i think you have a 1000 options here, but here is basically what i do
>
> the new barracude 7200.11 or es.2 disks are pretty competitive compared
> to the raptors in performance, and they also give you a lot more space
> for your Euro. (250GB for 74 Euro a piece) i personnally use 4 x 500GB
> in a RAID6 (about 100 something a piece)

But this HDD's are using PATA mechanik and have only a SATA2 Interface
attached. I have had Seagates but they gaved up on my (professionel)
Mailserver after 10 month or something like this.

The Raptors have REAL SCSI-Mechanik and of course, the Raptors have
faster access to a maildir with several million messages as the Seagates.

I love the seagated for storage and for my Fileservers but Mailservers
will be too much for them.

> you might consider dropping the raid controller and go with linux
> software raid instead, altough the software raid will give you less

Forget it... You can use Software-Raid in non-critical applications
but not on a System which must be 24/7 up and is used for automated
mailprocessing. They are to many contras for the Software-Raid.

> performance, but you can sort of compensate this by spending an extra
> 100 or 200 on your processor instead (i use the q6600)
>
> besides personal preference and insight, you might want to re consider
> the software vs hardware raid, i just find the kernel more reliable and
> forgiving then any controller.

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant


--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
0033/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)
 
Old 01-10-2008, 08:54 AM
Craig Sanders
 
Default New Mailserver...

On Mon, Jan 07, 2008 at 12:58:33PM +0100, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> It was an AMD Sempron 2200+ with 1 GByte of memory, an older AMI Megaraid
> Enterprise 1200 (with one Raid-1 + Hotfix using three DDRS-39130 for OS
> and one Raid-5 for the Mailstorage using five 18 GByte IBM disks)
>
> Currently I am using a reserve mainboard (P2/366/512) which can not
> handel more then 5000 messages per day... :-/
>
> Now I want to rebuild the Server from scratch using Etch with the courier
> suite, fetchmail, procmail, clamav-ng, spamassassin, apache2 and php.
>
> I like to continue using SCSI drives (or maybe WD Raptor SATA) since I
> have had a very negative experience using PATA disks for a courier server
> because the traffic produced by the maildir is realy heavy for the disks.

i doubt if that's really the case. i'm sure it happened, i just think
you've misdiagnosed the cause. 40K msgs/day is NOT a large load, it's
not even remotely close to a heavy mail load.

i'd guess you had insufficient memory (spamassassin uses heaps of RAM -
it's a pig) for disk buffering, thus slowing all disk I/O.

i've run much larger mail loads on much smaller systems, with much less
memory. e.g. a fairly active mailing list with over 150,000 subscribers
on an old pentium with 64MB RAM (it died under the load with sendmail,
but worked beautifully with postfix). i don't remember exactly when we
did it, but we later upgraded that box to a PII with 512MB, sometime
before the subscriber base got to about 500,000. it was a very popular
computer games related mailing list.



hmmm. i just had a thought. if you were running the IDE drives with
software raid-5 and comparing them to SCSI drives with hardware raid-5
WITH a non-volatile write cache, then that could cause significant I/O
load problems. raid-5 write performance really sucks - to the point
where it is almost unusable unless you have a large NV write cache. if
that's the case then forget what i said above about misdiagnosing the
cause.



> Since the Mailserver is my dedicated @home Mailserver which do automated
> mail-processing (arround 40000 messages per day but maybe increasing
> specialy by spam attacs) I like to go as cheap as possibel but want to
> have enough reserves in case of problems like spam.
>
> My preference is on AMD 64bit CPU's (I think, the programs above should
> not have anny problems with amd64) and I like to know, what you can
> suggest.

amd64 is fine. i run several amd64 boxes, some with 32-bit debian (i386
binaries), and some with 64-bit debian (amd64 binaries). the only
things that have problems (some minor, some major) on 64-bit amd64 are
proprietary junk like flash that doesn't/didn't have 64 bit binaries
available....not relevant at all for a pure open source mail server.



> The smallest WD Raptor drives are 36 GByte which mean, I need at least
> 7 of them but maybe I will go with a 3w9560-8 which can do Raid-6 (for
> the Mailstorage). The problem will be only the price for the disks
> (800 Euro) and for the controller (800 Euro) since mainboards and CPU's
> plus Memory are going cheap.

for a load of only 40,000 msgs/day, why waste the money on fast but
expensive scsi drives like these?

get a pair of 160GB SATA drives for the mail store, and run them in
software raid-1. they'll give you slightly more space (160GB vs 144GB),
cost a fraction of the price, and they will be significantly faster
because it's only raid-1 rather than hideously slow raid-5.

(raid-1 is many times faster than raid-5 without NV write cache. it's
even a lot faster than raid-5 *with* NV write cache).


and get another pair for the OS and everything else.


> My limit is currently by arround 1500 Euro.

here in .au, you'd be able to get a headless (no screen or kbd)
dual-core amd64 am2 system with 2GB RAM for about $AUD600.

160GB sata drives are about $AUD60 each, x4 = $AUD240.

all up, around $AUD840. and that would be massive overkill for the job.

current exchange rate is 1 Euro ~= 1.66 AUD.

so that would be about 506 Euro. only a third of your budget.

you could enjoy the savings or indulge in some frills:

more than enough left over to bring it up to 4GB RAM if you want, and a
couple of spare 160GB drives (and/or or buy 250GB or 320GB or even 500GB
drives instead of 160s).

maybe even go for one of the new quad-core amd64 CPUs. they're only
about $AUD100 more. spamassassin is not only a memory pig, it's a CPU
hog too....lots and lots of regular expression comparisons.



there's even enough money left over to buy a fully populate Gigabyte
I-RAM card (battery-backed ramdisk up to 4GB in size, with a SATA
interface) which you could mount as /var/spool/postfix

actually, i just re-read your msg above and you run courier instead
of postfix. mount it as whatever directory courier MTA uses for it's
incoming spool and temporary processing area. that's where a large part
of the bottleneck is in mail processing.


craig

--
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A Puritan is someone who is deathly afraid that someone, somewhere, is
having fun.


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Old 01-10-2008, 12:50 PM
Michelle Konzack
 
Default New Mailserver...

Am 2008-01-09 09:59:37, schrieb Jean-Paul Blaquiere:
> > On Jan 08, randall illuminated :
>
> > besides personal preference and insight, you might want to re consider
> > the software vs hardware raid, i just find the kernel more reliable and
> > forgiving then any controller.
> >
> one of the major reasons I use software raid on small end systems (like
> home/soho), is that in the case of major hardware failure, like your
> RAID card, you can just drop the disks into a new server and it all
> 'just works', instead of having to find an identical RAID card ....

3w65xx are compatibel with 3w75xx and with 3w85xx plus 3w95xx

This is WHY I use heavyly 3Ware controllers.
BTW, - ICP/Vortex controlers are compatibel too.

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day
Michelle Konzack


--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
0033/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)
 

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