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Old 02-29-2012, 04:53 AM
Christian PERRIER
 
Default Upcoming dpkg 1.16.2 upload

Quoting Guillem Jover (guillem@debian.org):
> Hi,
>
> Despite the circumstances, I've still managed to find some motivation
> to work on finishing reviewing and fixing code. Last week I got the


This is something I wanted to put in light, indeed (with your
permission, I'd like to blog about this).

I found really great that even while you were (from your POV) forced
to have dpkg uploaded to unstable while you disagreed with the upload,
you didn't take this as a personal attack and continued to work on the
package.

This is a really difficult decision to take: it's much more easy to
say that such things shouldn't be taken personnally than really apply
this concept and not take things as personal.

During recent weeks, I witnessed your continued activity on dpkg,
Guillem, and I'm admirative of this. And your proposal to upload a new
version is a confirmation of this feeling. Keep up with the good work
and I really hope that the difficult times we had are now over.


So, at least in my own name, I'd like to thank you for this.
 
Old 02-29-2012, 10:07 AM
Raphael Hertzog
 
Default Upcoming dpkg 1.16.2 upload

Hi,

On Wed, 29 Feb 2012, Guillem Jover wrote:
> Despite the circumstances, I've still managed to find some motivation
> to work on finishing reviewing and fixing code.

Thanks for this!

> Last week I got the bulk of the stuff done, input interfaces, correct
> in-core db layout, cross-grading working and other buggy stuff fixed,
> with the accompanying functional test-suite cleaned up and adapted too.

1/ Have you kept reference counting of shared files? The consensus
on -devel seemed that it was worth keeping it.

2/ Can you push your work in progress on pu/multiarch/master like you used
to do?

> I'll be doing final polish and pushes during this week, and expect to be
> able to do an upload by the mid/end of next week.

o/

Cheers,
--
Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer

Pre-order a copy of the Debian Administrator's Handbook and help
liberate it: http://debian-handbook.info/liberation/


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Old 03-03-2012, 02:41 AM
Guillem Jover
 
Default Upcoming dpkg 1.16.2 upload

On Wed, 2012-02-29 at 06:53:10 +0100, Christian PERRIER wrote:
> Quoting Guillem Jover (guillem@debian.org):
> > Despite the circumstances, I've still managed to find some motivation
> > to work on finishing reviewing and fixing code. Last week I got the

> I found really great that even while you were (from your POV) forced
> to have dpkg uploaded to unstable while you disagreed with the upload,
> you didn't take this as a personal attack and continued to work on the
> package.
>
> This is a really difficult decision to take: it's much more easy to
> say that such things shouldn't be taken personnally than really apply
> this concept and not take things as personal.

Well, I'm sorry to disappoint then, but I've not taken it gracefully,
and my possible lack of a more visceral reaction, does not imply I'm
not even more annoyed than I've been during the past last year.

The thing is, the fact that I've found the multiarch branch technically
unnacceptable for merge (some people seem to think I've been “stalling”
for no reason...), does not change even if people who have apparently
not even reviewed the code claim so, and as such anything I've found
broken or bogus about it, I'll keep finding that way and will keep
having the urge to eventually fix, not doing so would imply I'm not
taking proper care of dpkg, at which point I might as well quit (which
has already crossed my mind), or more likely continue hacking on the
code elsewhere (because that's the remaining part I'm actually still
enjoying).

On the other hand I've also become disappointed after possibly realizing
that Debian's culture seems to have been shifting into something different
than what it was when I joined, where technical excellence seems to be
less important than rushing things out, patience is not considered an
important virtue anymore, but being pushy and demanding are, etc.
Which means I've been and will be reconsidering what my involvment in
the project should be.

> [...] and I really hope that the difficult times we had are now over.

Sadly, given the current environment and fundamental philosophical and
working style incompatibilities, I doubt that...

regards,
guillem


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Old 03-03-2012, 08:36 AM
Christian PERRIER
 
Default Upcoming dpkg 1.16.2 upload

Quoting Guillem Jover (guillem@debian.org):

> On the other hand I've also become disappointed after possibly realizing
> that Debian's culture seems to have been shifting into something different
> than what it was when I joined, where technical excellence seems to be
> less important than rushing things out, patience is not considered an
> important virtue anymore, but being pushy and demanding are, etc.
> Which means I've been and will be reconsidering what my involvment in
> the project should be.

I'm not sure that this list is the right place for that discussion,
but I see too much generalization in this statement. From what I've
witnessed, the apparent "rush" has been quite soft and most people
involved in this multi-arch stuff much more deeply than I am have
refrained from pushing things too hard for a very long time before
becoming more insisting (and I think it wouldn't be fair to translate
"people" to "Raphal", here).

A *lot* of care has been taken to respect your very obvious commitment
to technical excellence and will to "do the right thing" and I don't
think that the TC people fit the definition you give above.

I think that everybody agrees that multi-arch changes are, in some
way, risky changes and this, particularly in the core package that
dpkg is. But I also think that, after a few weeks, we see that we
needed that release to unveil all consequences that, indeed, no human
could anticipate. Nobody wants to repeat the 3-year release cycle of
sarge, I'm afraid.

I'm sure this won't convince you more than you are now, but I also
think it's really unfair to conclude that the Debian culture has
changed because of that. And, frankly, from what I have witnessed
over the years, we already had many disruptive innovations happening
in our core packages in that past and probably not all of them were as
prepared as the multi-arch thing has been....

Again, I think that some words had to be said about
all this and, as I can't speak about technical issues that are flying
miles over my head....I then focus on the social issues. Nobody can't
really prevent me from doing so..:-)

So, well, in short, keep up with the good work and please don't give
up...neither now or in a near future.
 
Old 03-03-2012, 01:53 PM
"John D. Hendrickson and Sara Darnell"
 
Default Upcoming dpkg 1.16.2 upload

Thank you Christian,

My opion is ...

As to new developers rushing? Mark pkgs as "conflicts" or "alpha / beta" and major minor versions
correctly and you are fine a much bigger / free-er to submit contrib/ section would be nice.


I DEFINITELY have the option (1) DMs and DDs are PREVENTING new submissions (contrib/ wise) with too
many rules and this frustrates fresh meat. (2) but at the same time they are allowing massive
breaking by ignoring to force use "conflicts/alpha beta/major version bump" where it belongs. (ie, i
copy from host a new lib same major version and stuff not requiring minor improvements breaks)


My feeling? If a "new stable" isn't? People will use the old stable until it is good. In general
it's gotten better and more and better pkgs than ever are running. Way better than buzz and with
allot more "hardware" challenges to overcome !


Thanks all --John


Christian PERRIER wrote:
<snip>
bubulle@debian.org


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Old 03-04-2012, 05:20 AM
Goswin von Brederlow
 
Default Upcoming dpkg 1.16.2 upload

Guillem Jover <guillem@debian.org> writes:

> On the other hand I've also become disappointed after possibly realizing
> that Debian's culture seems to have been shifting into something different
> than what it was when I joined, where technical excellence seems to be
> less important than rushing things out, patience is not considered an
> important virtue anymore, but being pushy and demanding are, etc.
> Which means I've been and will be reconsidering what my involvment in
> the project should be.

You are kind of implying that you are the only one with technical
excellence and that all the people that designed, wrote and send you
multiarch stuff do not.

It saddens me too that Debian's culture seem to have changed to where a
single person things he has the only technical excellence on a subject.


Please do not quit but maybe stop putting it all on just your
shoulders. There must be someone else out there that you consider to
have sufficient technical experteese to work with you. And if not then
it would be even more important to bring someone else up to code. Having
such a central component as dpkg rely on just one person is a disaster
and the 10 month delay to review the multiarch patches will be the least
of the problems over time. Say next year you do quit or something
happens to you where would dpkg and Debian stand then.

MfG
Goswin

PS: having someone else on the team can also mean you can offload more
stuff you don't like on them and do more of the stuff you do like in
dpkg.



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