FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Debian > Debian dpkg

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 10-20-2011, 02:01 PM
Philipp Kern
 
Default Multiarch support in dpkg — really in time for wheezy?

Guillem,

we, the Release Team of the next stable release — wheezy —, are concerned about
the state of dpkg with relation to multiarch. Now, the news was already broken
at DebConf that wheezy will indeed be released as multiarch-ready[0]. This
might have been a bit premature, I guess.

If we want to carry on with multiarch in wheezy it really should enter
the archive now. The freeze deadline is approaching fast and we must be
able to shake out all the bugs in the time that's left. Deprecating ia32-libs
in a single cycle seems to be quite a bit of work, too.

Currently nobody can test multiarch with in-archive software. The multiarch
patches did not even land in experimental, despite some pokes from fellow
project members[1].

It's been over a month since your last announcement[2] that 1.16.2 is "coming
soon". If you have concerns over the implementation that's already in place
in a Debian derivative please speak up now, so that they can be properly
addressed in time. I can understand your desire to review the changes
properly[3], but please don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

We would like to see a dpkg with multiarch support in experimental now
and dpkg in sid in about two weeks time. Otherwise we might not be able to
pursue this goal for wheezy.

Kind regards and serious thanks for all your efforts,
Philipp Kern
for the Debian Release Team

[0] http://www.debian.org/News/2011/20110726b
[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2011/09/msg00077.html
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-dpkg/2011/07/msg00030.html
[3] http://lists.debian.org/debian-dpkg/2011/09/msg00005.html
--
.'`. Philipp Kern Debian Developer
: :' : http://philkern.de Stable Release Manager
`. `' xmpphil@0x539.de Wanna-Build Admin
`- finger pkern/key@db.debian.org
 
Old 10-21-2011, 09:23 AM
Raphael Hertzog
 
Default Multiarch support in dpkg — really in time for wheezy?

Hello everybody,

On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, Philipp Kern wrote:
> We would like to see a dpkg with multiarch support in experimental now
> and dpkg in sid in about two weeks time. Otherwise we might not be able to
> pursue this goal for wheezy.

Given this, and if Guillem hasn't responded with a review requiring
further work on the branch by sunday, I will upload dpkg 1.16.2 to
experimental on sunday (October 23th).

But I will do this release from a leaf branch that will not (yet) be
merged in master. That way Guillem still has a chance to improve the
multiarch branch prior to its merge in master. But this merge must
happen in the next 2 weeks so that we can upload dpkg 1.16.3 to sid
no later than the 6th of november.

I will also ensure that this second upload happens.

Cheers,
--
Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer

Pre-order a copy of the Debian Administrator's Handbook and help
liberate it: http://debian-handbook.info/go/ulule-rh/


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-dpkg-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 20111021092327.GC18929@rivendell.home.ouaza.com">h ttp://lists.debian.org/20111021092327.GC18929@rivendell.home.ouaza.com
 
Old 10-22-2011, 10:25 AM
Guillem Jover
 
Default Multiarch support in dpkg — really in time for wheezy?

On Fri, 2011-10-21 at 11:23:27 +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, Philipp Kern wrote:
> > We would like to see a dpkg with multiarch support in experimental now
> > and dpkg in sid in about two weeks time. Otherwise we might not be able to
> > pursue this goal for wheezy.
>
> Given this, and if Guillem hasn't responded with a review requiring
> further work on the branch by sunday, I will upload dpkg 1.16.2 to
> experimental on sunday (October 23th).
>
> But I will do this release from a leaf branch that will not (yet) be
> merged in master. That way Guillem still has a chance to improve the
> multiarch branch prior to its merge in master. But this merge must
> happen in the next 2 weeks so that we can upload dpkg 1.16.3 to sid
> no later than the 6th of november.
>
> I will also ensure that this second upload happens.

NACK on both unreviewed uploads.

What I'll do though, when I get back home tomorrow from my current
trip, is to push already reviewed stuff and keep pushing incrementally,
instead of my usual big pushes, so that the progress is more visible.

The 1.16.2 will still happen, as planned, quicker than our usual 2
months between micro releases.

regards,
guillem


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-dpkg-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 20111022102531.GA24538@gaara.hadrons.org">http://lists.debian.org/20111022102531.GA24538@gaara.hadrons.org
 
Old 10-22-2011, 12:52 PM
Raphael Hertzog
 
Default Multiarch support in dpkg — really in time for wheezy?

Hi Guillem,

On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, Guillem Jover wrote:
> On Fri, 2011-10-21 at 11:23:27 +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> > Given this, and if Guillem hasn't responded with a review requiring
> > further work on the branch by sunday, I will upload dpkg 1.16.2 to
> > experimental on sunday (October 23th).
>
> NACK on both unreviewed uploads.
>
> What I'll do though, when I get back home tomorrow from my current
> trip, is to push already reviewed stuff and keep pushing incrementally,
> instead of my usual big pushes, so that the progress is more visible.

That suggests that there's some multiarch work going on your side behind
the scenes. While I'm glad that there was progress (even if invisible),
I don't understand the lack of communication from your part on this
topic.

I mean it's not like I have done the work and handed it entirely over to
you, instead I have been maintaining the branch over the months and
squashing some bugfixes into existing commits from time to time. If there
are commits already reviewed I would like to see them so that there's no
divergence between what I have been maintaining publicly and what you have
done privately.

Also I don't know how your private branch looks like, but supplementary
review never hurts and I can't do that with private code.

> The 1.16.2 will still happen, as planned, quicker than our usual 2
> months between micro releases.

There's already 1 month elapsed out of the two. So you pretty much have to
respect the schedule suggested by the release team if you want this to be
true.

Cheers,
--
Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer

Pre-order a copy of the Debian Administrator's Handbook and help
liberate it: http://debian-handbook.info/go/ulule-rh/


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-dpkg-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 20111022125220.GH19780@rivendell.home.ouaza.com">h ttp://lists.debian.org/20111022125220.GH19780@rivendell.home.ouaza.com
 
Old 10-25-2011, 10:28 AM
Philipp Kern
 
Default Multiarch support in dpkg — really in time for wheezy?

Guillem,

On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 12:25:31PM +0200, Guillem Jover wrote:
> What I'll do though, when I get back home tomorrow from my current
> trip, is to push already reviewed stuff and keep pushing incrementally,
> instead of my usual big pushes, so that the progress is more visible.

thanks for the first push.

> The 1.16.2 will still happen, as planned, quicker than our usual 2
> months between micro releases.

So, are we on track for an upload to sid in the aforementioned two weeks?
Or what's your estimate when we'll get the multiarch changes into the
archive?

Kind regards,
Philipp Kern
--
.'`. Philipp Kern Debian Developer
: :' : http://philkern.de Stable Release Manager
`. `' xmpphil@0x539.de Wanna-Build Admin
`- finger pkern/key@db.debian.org
 
Old 10-29-2011, 11:10 AM
Stefano Zacchiroli
 
Default Multiarch support in dpkg — really in time for wheezy?

On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 12:25:31PM +0200, Guillem Jover wrote:
> On Fri, 2011-10-21 at 11:23:27 +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> > Given this, and if Guillem hasn't responded with a review requiring
> > further work on the branch by sunday, I will upload dpkg 1.16.2 to
> > experimental on sunday (October 23th).
<snip>
> > I will also ensure that this second upload happens.
>
> NACK on both unreviewed uploads.

Guillem, I'm very much worried about this attitude.

[ Disclaimer: my only data points come from people who have been trying
to get m-a in the archive in the past several months, including the
Release Team and Raphael. I might hence be biased or misinformed. I've
been trying to get your POV in the past weeks without much success,
mainly due to our different availability periods on IRC, so let's have
this discussion here. ]

What worries me is that there is multi-arch work in dpkg, work that has
its origins in Debian. That work is ready enough to be deployed in
popular Debian derivatives such as Ubuntu, but is not in Debian proper
yet. That is bad for Debian morale and should be avoided. Moreover, that
work is also considered ready enough by other dpkg co-maintainers, by
the Release Team, and by various porters, which have all asked multiple
times to have that work in the Debian archive.

Looking from the outside, the only blockers for that to happen are your
NACK-s. Those NACKs have been posted repeatedly, together with (largely
disattended) promises of timely review, uploads, and "git push"-es of
yours.

Accepting this attitude would be very bad for Debian, because it is at
stake with the way we usually do things (AKA "do-ocracy"). Accepting
this attitude would indeed mean acknowledging that people who have
earned respect in the past as maintainers can stall work done by others
by simply saying "NACK", without having to contribute alternative
solutions and/or show progress. We cannot allow that to happen in
Debian.

I'm very happy to see that some git push -es of yours are now flowing
into dpkg.git. I thank you for that. But it also seems that is happening
way slower than what is needed. (And TBH the thought of you hurrying up
now in doing such a work is worrisome in its own right.)

Please be a team player. If you can make it, that's great, we will all
benefit from extra eyes on the code, especially if they are experienced
eyes as yours. But if you cannot make it, please step back and allow for
uploads to happen. In case you are not willing to do that, I'd be in
favor of having other dpkg co-maintainers doing the uploads the Release
Team is asking for. After all, there is nothing that cannot be fixed
later in subsequent uploads.

Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} . o .
Maître de conférences ...... http://upsilon.cc/zack ...... . . o
Debian Project Leader ....... @zack on identi.ca ....... o o o
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »
 
Old 10-29-2011, 06:10 PM
Michael Gilbert
 
Default Multiarch support in dpkg — really in time for wheezy?

On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 7:10 AM, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> What worries me is that there is multi-arch work in dpkg, work that has
> its origins in Debian. That work is ready enough to be deployed in
> popular Debian derivatives such as Ubuntu, but is not in Debian proper
> yet. That is bad for Debian morale and should be avoided. Moreover, that
> work is also considered ready enough by other dpkg co-maintainers, by
> the Release Team, and by various porters, which have all asked multiple
> times to have that work in the Debian archive.

You could also make a case from a terminological perspective as well.
Unstable is where development in Debian is supposed to happen, so it's
perfectly acceptable to upload unfinished/unstable changes, and if you
happen to break something (at least with dpkg) you'll have hundreds of
eyes looking at what you broke and trying to figure out how to fix it.
So anyway, don't worry so much about breaking unstable. That's what
its there for.

Best wishes,
Mike


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-dpkg-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: CANTw=MML9RNfDVMxOwzFojFt6vdjrHYZfx7BPBqi5bRPKA83K w@mail.gmail.com">http://lists.debian.org/CANTw=MML9RNfDVMxOwzFojFt6vdjrHYZfx7BPBqi5bRPKA83K w@mail.gmail.com
 
Old 10-30-2011, 06:09 AM
Raphael Hertzog
 
Default Multiarch support in dpkg — really in time for wheezy?

Hi,

I can't let this without answer.

On Sat, 29 Oct 2011, Michael Gilbert wrote:
> You could also make a case from a terminological perspective as well.
> Unstable is where development in Debian is supposed to happen, so it's
> perfectly acceptable to upload unfinished/unstable changes.

No, sorry. That's not how we are using unstable. We push there stuff
that we believe to be mostly ready for the next stable release.

Unfinished/unstable work is supposed to go to experimental. And in the
case of dpkg doubly so because it affects everybody.

Fortunately multiarch support is not in a poor state and I believe it to
be of release quality (and it made a release in Ubuntu and did not
generate a flurry of bug reports).

Furthermore I don't think that guillem is worried of breaking unstable.

Cheers,
--
Raphaël Hertzog ◈ Debian Developer

Pre-order a copy of the Debian Administrator's Handbook and help
liberate it: http://debian-handbook.info/go/ulule-rh/


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-dpkg-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 20111030070956.GF28260@rivendell.home.ouaza.com">h ttp://lists.debian.org/20111030070956.GF28260@rivendell.home.ouaza.com
 
Old 10-30-2011, 01:44 PM
Michael Gilbert
 
Default Multiarch support in dpkg — really in time for wheezy?

On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 3:09 AM, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Oct 2011, Michael Gilbert wrote:
>> You could also make a case from a terminological perspective as well.
>> Unstable is where development in Debian is supposed to happen, so it's
>> perfectly acceptable to upload unfinished/unstable changes.
>
> No, sorry. That's not how we are using unstable. We push there stuff
> that we believe to be mostly ready for the next stable release.

Yeah, and multiarch is intended for next stable, so it needs to get
there at some point, and the sooner the better; as stated even by
yourself...

> Unfinished/unstable work is supposed to go to experimental. And in the
> case of dpkg doubly so because it affects everybody.

I did not say that every change to unstable needs to be
unfinished/unstable, but there comes a time when a maintainer has to
say enough is enough and take the risk and get it out there so
development elsewhere can continue. And again, if there are problems,
there are plenty of people ready to fix them. It's not solely
Guillem's responsibility if these patches do ultimately end up
breaking something.

I never said anything about it not making a stop-over in experimental anyway.

> Fortunately multiarch support is not in a poor state and I believe it to
> be of release quality (and it made a release in Ubuntu and did not
> generate a flurry of bug reports).
>
> Furthermore I don't think that guillem is worried of breaking unstable.

Then pushing the existing changeset should not be so excessively
dramatic. If he trusts the people that wrote it, and he doesn't have
sufficient time to review it now, then he can push it now and review
it later when he has time and fix it up to any degree of perfection he
needs.

Anyway, this response shouldn't have been necessary. Please
contemplate a little more about the writers' arguments before jumping
to incorrect conclusions about their point. t would immensely help
the quality of communications on Debian mailing lists.

Thanks and best wishes,
Mike


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-dpkg-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: CANTw=MNo6izkjEq8Nn=+YPPoJ2hn5eXG+zGy1=CKSQLU9VmYJ Q@mail.gmail.com">http://lists.debian.org/CANTw=MNo6izkjEq8Nn=+YPPoJ2hn5eXG+zGy1=CKSQLU9VmYJ Q@mail.gmail.com
 
Old 11-01-2011, 09:13 PM
Philipp Kern
 
Default Multiarch support in dpkg — really in time for wheezy?

Hi,

On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 11:23:27AM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Oct 2011, Philipp Kern wrote:
> > We would like to see a dpkg with multiarch support in experimental now
> > and dpkg in sid in about two weeks time. Otherwise we might not be able to
> > pursue this goal for wheezy.
> Given this, and if Guillem hasn't responded with a review requiring
> further work on the branch by sunday, I will upload dpkg 1.16.2 to
> experimental on sunday (October 23th).
>
> But I will do this release from a leaf branch that will not (yet) be
> merged in master. That way Guillem still has a chance to improve the
> multiarch branch prior to its merge in master. But this merge must
> happen in the next 2 weeks so that we can upload dpkg 1.16.3 to sid
> no later than the 6th of november.
>
> I will also ensure that this second upload happens.

so are we on track for the upload of dpkg to sid by the end of the week?

Kind regards,
Philipp Kern
--
.'`. Philipp Kern Debian Developer
: :' : http://philkern.de Stable Release Manager
`. `' xmpphil@0x539.de Wanna-Build Admin
`- finger pkern/key@db.debian.org
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 02:56 AM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org