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-   -   Poll (was: Popularity of bzr-builddeb and dh-make) (http://www.linux-archive.org/debian-development/711719-poll-popularity-bzr-builddeb-dh-make.html)

Benjamin Drung 10-12-2012 10:06 AM

Poll (was: Popularity of bzr-builddeb and dh-make)
 
Am Freitag, den 12.10.2012, 10:04 +0800 schrieb Paul Wise:
> On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 5:35 AM, Benjamin Drung wrote:
>
> > A poll is a good idea. Can you recommend a site that allows setting up a
> > poll?
>
> The Debian secretary was at one point going to setup devotee for this
> sort of thing, don't think that ever happened though.
>
> If you want some FSAAS (free-software-as-a-service), search for doodle
> on this page:
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/FreedomBox/LeavingTheCloud

Thanks.

I have setup a poll for it:

https://dudle.inf.tu-dresden.de/Popularity_of_bzr-builddeb_and_dh-make/

The poll will be closed in one week (if enough votes are collected).

--
Benjamin Drung
Debian & Ubuntu Developer

Hideki Yamane 10-12-2012 12:13 PM

Poll (was: Popularity of bzr-builddeb and dh-make)
 
Hi,

On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:06:11 +0200
Benjamin Drung <bdrung@debian.org> wrote:
> I have setup a poll for it:
> https://dudle.inf.tu-dresden.de/Popularity_of_bzr-builddeb_and_dh-make/

Thanks! :) voted.

My opinion is as BTSed,
- dh-make is still usable for 1st step. Maybe experienced/skilled developer
don't need it (but needed it at least for me ;)

- bzr-builddeb is, well, it seems that is useful in UDD (Ubuntu Distributed
Development, as Ubuntu packaging guide says) way, but now it heavily
relies on Launchpad in my point of view. And, packaging-dev can specify
vendor-specific Recommends/Suggest in its rules, then use it for Ubuntu
is meaningful.

(Well, LP is quite nice and Debian should consider to introduce its good
point (user friendly web interface, etc), but I don't want to depend on
it, sorry).

--
Regards,

Hideki Yamane henrich @ debian.or.jp/org
http://wiki.debian.org/HidekiYamane


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Benjamin Drung 10-12-2012 12:22 PM

Poll (was: Popularity of bzr-builddeb and dh-make)
 
Am Freitag, den 12.10.2012, 21:13 +0900 schrieb Hideki Yamane:
> - bzr-builddeb is, well, it seems that is useful in UDD (Ubuntu Distributed
> Development, as Ubuntu packaging guide says) way, but now it heavily
> relies on Launchpad in my point of view.

How does bzr-builddeb depend on Launchpad? bzr is integrated into
Launchpad, but you can use bzr without Launchpad as every other DVCS.

--
Benjamin Drung
Debian & Ubuntu Developer

John Paul Adrian Glaubitz 10-12-2012 12:25 PM

Poll (was: Popularity of bzr-builddeb and dh-make)
 
On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 12:06:11PM +0200, Benjamin Drung wrote:
> Thanks.
>
> I have setup a poll for it:
>
> https://dudle.inf.tu-dresden.de/Popularity_of_bzr-builddeb_and_dh-make/

I voted, thanks!

Cheers,

Adrian

Jelmer Vernooij 10-12-2012 12:27 PM

Poll (was: Popularity of bzr-builddeb and dh-make)
 
On Fri, 2012-10-12 at 21:13 +0900, Hideki Yamane wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:06:11 +0200
> Benjamin Drung <bdrung@debian.org> wrote:
> > I have setup a poll for it:
> > https://dudle.inf.tu-dresden.de/Popularity_of_bzr-builddeb_and_dh-make/
>
> Thanks! :) voted.
>
> My opinion is as BTSed,
> - dh-make is still usable for 1st step. Maybe experienced/skilled developer
> don't need it (but needed it at least for me ;)
>
> - bzr-builddeb is, well, it seems that is useful in UDD (Ubuntu Distributed
> Development, as Ubuntu packaging guide says) way, but now it heavily
> relies on Launchpad in my point of view. And, packaging-dev can specify
> vendor-specific Recommends/Suggest in its rules, then use it for Ubuntu
> is meaningful.
>
> (Well, LP is quite nice and Debian should consider to introduce its good
> point (user friendly web interface, etc), but I don't want to depend on
> it, sorry).
bzr-builddeb is perfectly well usable without Launchpad; it doesn't
depend on it. I've been using it with bzr.debian.org for a long time.

There are two commands that have some Launchpad-specific integration,
but that integration is completely optional and those commands are still
perfectly usable without Launchpad. There is also no hard dependency on
python-launchpadlib.

Cheers,

Jelmer


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Hideki Yamane 10-12-2012 12:40 PM

Poll (was: Popularity of bzr-builddeb and dh-make)
 
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:22:06 +0200
Benjamin Drung <bdrung@debian.org> wrote:
> How does bzr-builddeb depend on Launchpad? bzr is integrated into
> Launchpad, but you can use bzr without Launchpad as every other DVCS.

Just because I don't imagine use bzr without LP ;)
Yes, it can be used as you've pointed out, but using VCS is not only
tools but also includes workflow, I think. So I said it relies on LP.

--
Regards,

Hideki Yamane henrich @ debian.or.jp/org
http://wiki.debian.org/HidekiYamane


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Jelmer Vernooij 10-12-2012 12:46 PM

Poll (was: Popularity of bzr-builddeb and dh-make)
 
On Fri, 2012-10-12 at 21:40 +0900, Hideki Yamane wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:22:06 +0200
> Benjamin Drung <bdrung@debian.org> wrote:
> > How does bzr-builddeb depend on Launchpad? bzr is integrated into
> > Launchpad, but you can use bzr without Launchpad as every other DVCS.
>
> Just because I don't imagine use bzr without LP ;)
> Yes, it can be used as you've pointed out, but using VCS is not only
> tools but also includes workflow, I think. So I said it relies on LP.
The workflow doesn't have to involve Launchpad either - I'm not using
Launchpad at all for my Debian packages. Just because the majority of
Bazaar users host their branches on Launchpad, doesn't mean that a
Bazaar workflow has to involve Launchpad.

Similarly, just because a lot of Git users host their branches on Github
doesn't mean that Git is unusable without Github.

Cheers,

Jelmer


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Hideki Yamane 10-12-2012 12:52 PM

Poll (was: Popularity of bzr-builddeb and dh-make)
 
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:46:41 +0200
Jelmer Vernooij <jelmer@debian.org> wrote:
> The workflow doesn't have to involve Launchpad either - I'm not using
> Launchpad at all for my Debian packages. Just because the majority of
> Bazaar users host their branches on Launchpad, doesn't mean that a
> Bazaar workflow has to involve Launchpad.

Okay. I'm wrong.

BTW, most people uses svn or git, what is prefer you to use bazaar?
I'm curious.

--
Regards,

Hideki Yamane henrich @ debian.or.jp/org
http://wiki.debian.org/HidekiYamane


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Dmitrijs Ledkovs 10-12-2012 01:21 PM

Poll (was: Popularity of bzr-builddeb and dh-make)
 
On 12 October 2012 13:52, Hideki Yamane <henrich@debian.or.jp> wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:46:41 +0200
> Jelmer Vernooij <jelmer@debian.org> wrote:
>> The workflow doesn't have to involve Launchpad either - I'm not using
>> Launchpad at all for my Debian packages. Just because the majority of
>> Bazaar users host their branches on Launchpad, doesn't mean that a
>> Bazaar workflow has to involve Launchpad.
>
> Okay. I'm wrong.
>
> BTW, most people uses svn or git, what is prefer you to use bazaar?
> I'm curious.
>

well the fact that it works nice out of the box and has nice command
line syntax.

pristine tarball is on by default.
auto detects: native/non-native and full source vs debian/ dir only
packaging by default
auto fetches tarballs: from the pristine tar, from apt, from servers
with get-orig-tarball, with uscan
builds packages in a sane way, even if you have uncommited changes:
bzr bd (for debuild), bzr bd -S (for src package only)
Simple to make it split-mode: e.g. if you are both upstream and
packager, you can do $ bzr bd --split, which will create original
tarball sans debian dir and build proper non-native package (this is
very hard to do with other tools)
bzr-bd supports merging packages really well when you fork sid &
experimental and what to keep both forks in sync, or finally fold
experimental into sid, without loosing changelogs.
(BTW I hate how some maintainers do not keep NMU changelog entries....)
bzr-bd can deal with quilt patches sensibly by auto applying &
removing them depending on your preference, the default is sane as
well.

also great support on ubuntu-udd mailing list and ubuntu-motu irc
channels using it for most core packages in ubuntu helps as well.

The list goes on =)

With svn/git/hg/mnt-buildpackage I have yet to see all of these little
features work so well out of the box with no or little configuration.

I wish hg-queues would be better integrated into hg-buildpackage, or
bzr-bd had pipes/looms support for top class quilt patch management.
But none other tools get it right either.

Regards,

Dmitrijs.


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Charles Plessy 10-12-2012 03:10 PM

Poll (was: Popularity of bzr-builddeb and dh-make)
 
Le Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 12:06:11PM +0200, Benjamin Drung a écrit :
> Am Freitag, den 12.10.2012, 10:04 +0800 schrieb Paul Wise:
>
> https://dudle.inf.tu-dresden.de/Popularity_of_bzr-builddeb_and_dh-make/
>
> The poll will be closed in one week (if enough votes are collected).

Hello everybody,

if the point is to have a package that pulls everything one needs when doing
random work in Debian (as opposed with working specifically in one team where
it is predictable which helpers are used and which are not), then I do not
understand the point of not including *-buildpackage and dh-make, which are
tiny regarding to most other things that mk-builddeps will pull in later.

I think that it is exactly the case where we should not vote. Unless the
wheight of bzr and dh-make is unbearable to otherwise users of packaging-dev,
even if the majority do not use them, what is the harm recommending them ?
Not to mention that there is no evidence that the people who vote for or
against recommending them are really using packaging-dev...

Cheers,

--
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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