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Old 10-11-2012, 07:45 PM
Simon Josefsson
 
Default (seemingly) declinging bug report numbers

Marco Nenciarini <mnencia@debian.org> writes:

> Il giorno gio, 11/10/2012 alle 02.46 +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer ha
> scritto:
>>
>> On the other hand, some worries are there that this could imply some
>> decline in Debian itself.
>> Well I still think Debian is the best distro out there for most (if not
>> all cases), even though I'd like to see it putting more emphasis on
>> security.
>
> I've seen recently several company I'm working with getting away from
> Debian in favor of Ubuntu because they have a LTS version. However I
> don't know if this is a general trend.

I can confirm the trend for a couple of organisations. The primary
reason that I identified was the retirement of security support for
Lenny and that Lenny packages are removed from many Debian mirrors which
made it difficult to use Lenny machines. IMHO, supporting an OS release
for only 3 years is not long enough.

/Simon


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Old 10-11-2012, 07:51 PM
Tollef Fog Heen
 
Default (seemingly) declinging bug report numbers

]] Steve Langasek

> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 05:29:51PM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> > This might be your impression. It does not at all match my impression.
>
> > Quite a few upstreams thinks Debian are working contrary to their
> > design and their goals and are actively hindering adoption of their
> > software. If you're interested in examples, just take a look at how
> > rubygems was handled in Debian until wheezy and all the silliness
> > around node.js and /usr/bin/node.

(Just to be very clear: I'm reporting what I see other people are
saying. I am not saying I agree with them.)

> When, as in the case of node.js, upstream is antisocial and has an
> overinflated sense of self-importance, it's perfectly appropriate for
> Debian to work contrary to their design. Our job is not to make
> upstreams happy, it's to make our *users* happy; and while being good
> Free Software citizens means we try to respect the wishes of upstreams
> as well, there are exceptions.

In some cases, making one set of users happy means making another set of
users unhappy, so it always comes down to tradeoffs.

--
Tollef Fog Heen
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are


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Old 10-11-2012, 08:14 PM
Paul Tagliamonte
 
Default (seemingly) declinging bug report numbers

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 09:45:58PM +0200, Simon Josefsson wrote:
> Marco Nenciarini <mnencia@debian.org> writes:
>
> > Il giorno gio, 11/10/2012 alle 02.46 +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer ha
> > scritto:
> >>
> >> On the other hand, some worries are there that this could imply some
> >> decline in Debian itself.
> >> Well I still think Debian is the best distro out there for most (if not
> >> all cases), even though I'd like to see it putting more emphasis on
> >> security.
> >
> > I've seen recently several company I'm working with getting away from
> > Debian in favor of Ubuntu because they have a LTS version. However I
> > don't know if this is a general trend.
>
> I can confirm the trend for a couple of organisations. The primary
> reason that I identified was the retirement of security support for
> Lenny and that Lenny packages are removed from many Debian mirrors which
> made it difficult to use Lenny machines. IMHO, supporting an OS release
> for only 3 years is not long enough.

FWIW, it should be noted Ubuntu only supports most packages for 3 years
as well. The subset of packages considered for "Server" support is
supported for 5, but most people will suggest you follow the LTS upgrade
path, which is very similar to Debian Stable's.

My 2 cents.

>
> /Simon
>
>
> --
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> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
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>

--
All programmers are playwrights, and all computers are lousy actors.

#define sizeof(x) rand()
:wq
 
Old 10-11-2012, 08:33 PM
Benjamin Drung
 
Default (seemingly) declinging bug report numbers

Am Donnerstag, den 11.10.2012, 16:14 -0400 schrieb Paul Tagliamonte:
> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 09:45:58PM +0200, Simon Josefsson wrote:
> > Marco Nenciarini <mnencia@debian.org> writes:
> >
> > > Il giorno gio, 11/10/2012 alle 02.46 +0200, Christoph Anton Mitterer ha
> > > scritto:
> > >>
> > >> On the other hand, some worries are there that this could imply some
> > >> decline in Debian itself.
> > >> Well I still think Debian is the best distro out there for most (if not
> > >> all cases), even though I'd like to see it putting more emphasis on
> > >> security.
> > >
> > > I've seen recently several company I'm working with getting away from
> > > Debian in favor of Ubuntu because they have a LTS version. However I
> > > don't know if this is a general trend.
> >
> > I can confirm the trend for a couple of organisations. The primary
> > reason that I identified was the retirement of security support for
> > Lenny and that Lenny packages are removed from many Debian mirrors which
> > made it difficult to use Lenny machines. IMHO, supporting an OS release
> > for only 3 years is not long enough.
>
> FWIW, it should be noted Ubuntu only supports most packages for 3 years
> as well. The subset of packages considered for "Server" support is
> supported for 5, but most people will suggest you follow the LTS upgrade
> path, which is very similar to Debian Stable's.

Since Ubuntu 12.04 LTS, the LTS versions are supported for five years on
the desktop, too.

[1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS

--
Benjamin Drung
Debian & Ubuntu Developer
 
Old 10-11-2012, 09:40 PM
Russ Allbery
 
Default (seemingly) declinging bug report numbers

Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> writes:
> Marco Nenciarini <mnencia@debian.org> writes:

>> I've seen recently several company I'm working with getting away from
>> Debian in favor of Ubuntu because they have a LTS version. However I
>> don't know if this is a general trend.

> I can confirm the trend for a couple of organisations. The primary
> reason that I identified was the retirement of security support for
> Lenny and that Lenny packages are removed from many Debian mirrors which
> made it difficult to use Lenny machines. IMHO, supporting an OS release
> for only 3 years is not long enough.

I've heard lots of this too, and have seen multiple concrete examples.
However, they all uniformly seem to significantly misunderstand Ubuntu
security support and think that considerably more of the Ubuntu archive is
supported in LTS than is actually the case.

People don't seem to realize that Debian security support is rather more
comprehensive than Ubuntu's is for their LTS release.

--
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>


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Old 10-11-2012, 09:57 PM
Vincent Bernat
 
Default (seemingly) declinging bug report numbers

❦ 11 octobre 2012 20:26 CEST, Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org>*:

>> Quite a few upstreams thinks Debian are working contrary to their design
>> and their goals and are actively hindering adoption of their software.
>> If you're interested in examples, just take a look at how rubygems was
>> handled in Debian until wheezy and all the silliness around node.js and
>> /usr/bin/node.
>
> When, as in the case of node.js, upstream is antisocial and has an
> overinflated sense of self-importance, it's perfectly appropriate for Debian
> to work contrary to their design.

About the first part of the sentence, this is a good way to get a whole
community against us if it becomes publicized. We'll be happy to work
for a distribution that nobody uses because nobody likes us any more.
--
printk(KERN_WARNING "Multi-volume CD somehow got mounted.
");
2.2.16 /usr/src/linux/fs/isofs/inode.c
 
Old 10-11-2012, 10:00 PM
Vincent Bernat
 
Default (seemingly) declinging bug report numbers

❦ 11 octobre 2012 22:33 CEST, Benjamin Drung <bdrung@debian.org>*:

>> > I can confirm the trend for a couple of organisations. The primary
>> > reason that I identified was the retirement of security support for
>> > Lenny and that Lenny packages are removed from many Debian mirrors which
>> > made it difficult to use Lenny machines. IMHO, supporting an OS release
>> > for only 3 years is not long enough.
>>
>> FWIW, it should be noted Ubuntu only supports most packages for 3 years
>> as well. The subset of packages considered for "Server" support is
>> supported for 5, but most people will suggest you follow the LTS upgrade
>> path, which is very similar to Debian Stable's.
>
> Since Ubuntu 12.04 LTS, the LTS versions are supported for five years on
> the desktop, too.
>
> [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS

This only applies to "main", right?
--
Use variable names that mean something.
- The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan & Plauger)
 
Old 10-11-2012, 10:12 PM
Benjamin Drung
 
Default (seemingly) declinging bug report numbers

Am Freitag, den 12.10.2012, 00:00 +0200 schrieb Vincent Bernat:
> ❦ 11 octobre 2012 22:33 CEST, Benjamin Drung <bdrung@debian.org> :
>
> >> > I can confirm the trend for a couple of organisations. The primary
> >> > reason that I identified was the retirement of security support for
> >> > Lenny and that Lenny packages are removed from many Debian mirrors which
> >> > made it difficult to use Lenny machines. IMHO, supporting an OS release
> >> > for only 3 years is not long enough.
> >>
> >> FWIW, it should be noted Ubuntu only supports most packages for 3 years
> >> as well. The subset of packages considered for "Server" support is
> >> supported for 5, but most people will suggest you follow the LTS upgrade
> >> path, which is very similar to Debian Stable's.
> >
> > Since Ubuntu 12.04 LTS, the LTS versions are supported for five years on
> > the desktop, too.
> >
> > [1] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS
>
> This only applies to "main", right?

main + restricted are supported by Canonical. universe + multiverse are
supported by the community (in a best effort manner).

--
Benjamin Drung
Debian & Ubuntu Developer
 
Old 10-11-2012, 11:21 PM
Steve Langasek
 
Default (seemingly) declinging bug report numbers

On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 11:57:24PM +0200, Vincent Bernat wrote:
> ❦ 11 octobre 2012 20:26 CEST, Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org>*:

> >> Quite a few upstreams thinks Debian are working contrary to their design
> >> and their goals and are actively hindering adoption of their software.
> >> If you're interested in examples, just take a look at how rubygems was
> >> handled in Debian until wheezy and all the silliness around node.js and
> >> /usr/bin/node.

> > When, as in the case of node.js, upstream is antisocial and has an
> > overinflated sense of self-importance, it's perfectly appropriate for Debian
> > to work contrary to their design.

> About the first part of the sentence, this is a good way to get a whole
> community against us if it becomes publicized. We'll be happy to work
> for a distribution that nobody uses because nobody likes us any more.

I have no problem with the above statement being publicized. The rude
behavior of node.js upstream in regard to their namespace handling is
already well known. I'm not going to meekly pretend that their behavior is
ok for fear of angering whatever the node.js equivalent of the Slashdot
crowd is. The TC resolution carefully balanced the needs of both sets of
users, but as for node.js upstream, they receive my full scorn for their
role in this as namespace hijackers.

--
Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer http://www.debian.org/
slangasek@ubuntu.com vorlon@debian.org
 
Old 10-12-2012, 02:01 AM
Paul Wise
 
Default (seemingly) declinging bug report numbers

On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 3:45 AM, Simon Josefsson wrote:

> I can confirm the trend for a couple of organisations. The primary
> reason that I identified was the retirement of security support for
> Lenny and that Lenny packages are removed from many Debian mirrors which
> made it difficult to use Lenny machines. IMHO, supporting an OS release
> for only 3 years is not long enough.

We don't have enough human power to fix all the RC bugs that crop up
in stable during its lifetime, I doubt maintainers are ever going to
want or be able to support oldstable for longer than we do already.

http://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/

As far as support for oldstable on security issues goes, you might
want to take a look at these pages:

http://wiki.debian.org/DebianSecurity/Meetings/2011-01-14
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2011/01/msg00006.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-security/2011/10/msg00029.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-security/2011/10/msg00030.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-security/2011/10/msg00033.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-security/2011/10/threads.html#00001

--
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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