FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Debian > Debian Development

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 09-19-2012, 05:58 PM
superuserlaptop
 
Default Comments on Mate DE

Mate Desktop environment (http://www.mate-desktop.org)

I am writing in support of Mate DE. In less than a year a few people
have designed an alternative to Gnome 3.

I have been averaging one reconditioned HP Compaq nc6400 laptop per
quarter year, four per year. This is one of my contributions to Debian
and Linux.

I give these out to individuals who do not have a computer and cannot
afford one and have very limited computer skills.

I use Debian with a Mate DE. The reports back so far from everyone that
has received a laptop that they like the way it handles better than
Windows or Apple.

It has been a simple process until now September 18, 2012. Just as in
the past Debian broke OpenOffice and substituted LibreOffice. It was a
major effort to undo the damage caused by that action. I have still not
completely repaired the damage of lost components to Open Office. Which
I have finally reinstalled.

You are now allowing OO to live side by side with LO. This is as it
should be. But again you have taken a similar action to Mate. It is
impossible now to install.

This to me is a form of sabotage. I understand that Mate is not totally
in line with the philosophy of Debian, but they are getting there.

In the mean time I have found Mate very stable and I have not had to
repair one laptop. I did receive one question that I told them the
problem would repair itself with a reboot. They were afraid to do
anything. The reboot did indeed repaired the problem.

What better way to create good will for Debian and Linux than to do this
service?

Yet someone decided that this would not be. There is a difference
between endorsing, or not, a program, to breaking it because someone did
not like what it was doing.

Debian has had this attitude of doing it the Debian way or leave. I have
been using Linux off and on since Red Hat 2.

It is the same with some of the programs that are available, the only
way to use them is to go up into SID. The components to the software
always stay in SID. Yet this causes problems with the system that can
only be rectified by turning off updates.

This is why, I do not allow updates from Debian. I do for Mate and
Multimedia. I have been burned too often by Debian.

Yet Debian is a very good operating system when this self-rightious
attitude is not involved.

There has been limited discussions about forking Debian to get away from
these problems that make life measurable.

It is time for the people who make the decisions at Debian that there is
a very strong cause and effect relationship between what you do and how
well the community will operate. Will it work smoothly or be
frustratingly broken with lost hours trying to repair a bad decision at
Debian.

By adding problems that are not technical but solely the opinion of one
or two or even a handful of people is destructive.

I have always encouraged people to financially help with a few dollars
to free programs. Again this year I do not encourage financial support
for Debian. Last year you lost this endorsement because of Open Office.
This year because of Mate.

I believe it is time for you and your peers to decide to make sound
decisions or to continue as you have done in the past. I hope you choose
to move forward with making responsible decisions understanding that
what you think is unimportant may be totally destructive to a portion of
the community.

So do you fix this problem with Mate, or do talks continue about forking
off of Debian? A position I do not currently hold.

In fact I would encourage talks for combining the many Linux
distribution with a solid kernel format so that the differences become
that of enhancements for specific tasks, based upon a single format.
This will mean that for Linux only one program style will need to be
developed. Thus leaving to the differences in kernel modules the process
for making the many distributions of Linux.

As an example of how I see things, even though I deplored your stunt
with OO and LO, I would be just as angry if you now broke LO even though
I will not use it because of the method that it was forced upon me. And
yes, OO is still a better suite than LO. Apache has stepped up and made
the needed changes.

It is now time for you and your associates to make some decisions. Do
you force another splinter in the Linux community or do you work to
bring together the community?

I have quite a few years on many of the people in the computer industry.
I see many dedicate individuals trying hard to do good work. What I see
lacking in this industry is the understanding that comes from many years
of living.

I have spent 42+ years as licensed broadcast engineer and have literally
grew up professionally with the computer industry. I like seeing the
young people coming in to the ranks, it is disappointing that the
knowledge from experienced individuals is not used often enough. This
action is such an example.

I enjoy the new frontiers, just think where we would be if we took the
egos out of the equation and instead of saying it must be done my way,
that if equal processes work, we do it all ways.




--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 505A07C3.50901@gmail.com">http://lists.debian.org/505A07C3.50901@gmail.com
 
Old 09-20-2012, 10:12 AM
Thomas Goirand
 
Default Comments on Mate DE

On 09/20/2012 01:58 AM, superuserlaptop wrote:

Mate Desktop environment (http://www.mate-desktop.org)

I am writing in support of Mate DE. In less than a year a few people
have designed an alternative to Gnome 3.

I have been averaging one reconditioned HP Compaq nc6400 laptop per
quarter year, four per year. This is one of my contributions to Debian
and Linux.

I give these out to individuals who do not have a computer and cannot
afford one and have very limited computer skills.

I use Debian with a Mate DE. The reports back so far from everyone that
has received a laptop that they like the way it handles better than
Windows or Apple.

It has been a simple process until now September 18, 2012. Just as in
the past Debian broke OpenOffice and substituted LibreOffice.


You can't say it this way. At the maximum, you could say that the maintainer
of OpenOffice decided to follow the LibreOffice branch rather than the
Apache OpenOffice one. It's not a "decision" that Debian made, but the
choice of a maintainer, who spent quite a large amount of time on it.

If you want to maintain Apache OpenOffice in Debian, please do, but first
explain to us why we would need to support both. As I understand, the
LibreOffice suite adds patches and features to the Apache OpenOffice,
when the other way isn't truth.


It was a
major effort to undo the damage caused by that action.


What damage are you talking about? I'm really happy with LibreOffice
myself.


I have still not
completely repaired the damage of lost components to Open Office. Which
I have finally reinstalled.


What components?


You are now allowing OO to live side by side with LO. This is as it
should be.


I don't think anyone forbid that. If that was the case, please give
a reference where you read that it wasn't allowed to maintain both
packages in Debian.


But again you have taken a similar action to Mate.


Could you define these actions? I don't think anyone willingly
tried to break the compatibility with Mate.


This to me is a form of sabotage.


Come on!!! Please don't use such bad words, I don't think anyone
in Debian is trying to do any kind of sabotage.


I understand that Mate is not totally
in line with the philosophy of Debian, but they are getting there.


Why do you think so? I never read that Debian has something against
Mate or any other open source project.


What better way to create good will for Debian and Linux than to do this
service?


Debian isn't a company. If you wish to see Mate in Debian, then please
maintain its packages.


Yet someone decided that this would not be.


Who exactly are you talking about?


There is a difference
between endorsing, or not, a program, to breaking it because someone did
not like what it was doing.


Please give a reference here.


Debian has had this attitude of doing it the Debian way or leave.


Again, please give references.


It is the same with some of the programs that are available, the only
way to use them is to go up into SID. The components to the software
always stay in SID.


Well, after some times in SID, packages goes in testing, then when the new
stable is released, it goes to Stable. These are very well established
rules in
Debian, and I see no problem with it. If you want more updated software,
then

please do switch to testing. What problem do you have with testing anyway?


Yet this causes problems with the system that can
only be rectified by turning off updates.

This is why, I do not allow updates from Debian. I do for Mate and
Multimedia. I have been burned too often by Debian.


Again, no reference to any specific issue, so we can't help.


Yet Debian is a very good operating system when this self-rightious
attitude is not involved.


Again, Debian is composed with a set of people. Accusing the entire
project like this doesn't help, and isn't nice (you are attacking about
1000 people at the same time...). And it wont make things better...
Instead, please explain what your problem is, and point to specific
issues. That would be a lot more constructive.


There has been limited discussions about forking Debian to get away from
these problems that make life measurable.


According to distrowatch, there's 139 Debian derivatives. So there
has been a little more than "limited discussions"...


It is time for the people who make the decisions at Debian that there is
a very strong cause and effect relationship between what you do and how
well the community will operate.


What community are you talking about? Do you mean "users"?


By adding problems that are not technical but solely the opinion of one
or two or even a handful of people is destructive.


If you are again talking about Gnome or Mate support or OpenOffice, then
again,

please feel free to contribute and address the issues.


I have always encouraged people to financially help with a few dollars
to free programs. Again this year I do not encourage financial support
for Debian. Last year you lost this endorsement because of Open Office.
This year because of Mate.


By giving to Debian, you aren't forcing your will on some maintainers.
Nobody
can force anyone to do anything in Debian, it's all volunteer driven.
Instead,
you should discuss with each individual maintainers, or even better,
contribute

yourself.


So do you fix this problem with Mate, or do talks continue about forking
off of Debian? A position I do not currently hold.


Well, best would be to find a maintainer for Mate, I believe. But it'd
better

be someone serious, because that's a lot of work.


In fact I would encourage talks for combining the many Linux
distribution with a solid kernel format so that the differences become
that of enhancements for specific tasks, based upon a single format.
This will mean that for Linux only one program style will need to be
developed. Thus leaving to the differences in kernel modules the process
for making the many distributions of Linux.


Sorry, but things doesn't technically work this way. The issue isn't the
kernel.



As an example of how I see things, even though I deplored your stunt
with OO and LO, I would be just as angry if you now broke LO even though
I will not use it because of the method that it was forced upon me. And
yes, OO is still a better suite than LO. Apache has stepped up and made
the needed changes.


Why is it better? The patch statistics don't agree with you, unless this has
changed recently.


It is now time for you and your associates to make some decisions.


There's no "associates". Debian isn't a company. It's only volunteers.

Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 505AEC27.4040607@debian.org">http://lists.debian.org/505AEC27.4040607@debian.org
 
Old 09-20-2012, 10:49 AM
Jon Dowland
 
Default Comments on Mate DE

Hello,

Thank you for your mail.

The reason MATE is not in Debian is that nobody has put the work in to make it
so. In Debian, things happen thanks to developers putting effort in, usually in
their spare time. Whilst it's true that some people believe MATE should not be
included in Debian, they do so for technical reasons, not religious ones - and
they won't prevent it being included so long as people are prepared to put the
work in.

Some people have started to put the work in - see <http://bugs.debian.org/658783>.
However the timing is such that it will not be included in the next Debian stable
release. It might make the one after that…


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120920104927.GA17882@debian
 
Old 09-21-2012, 01:14 PM
Thomas Goirand
 
Default Comments on Mate DE

On 09/20/2012 01:58 AM, superuserlaptop wrote:

This to me is a form of sabotage.

It turns out that "superuserlaptop" is using a Squeeze system,
half upgraded, with a MATE Wheezy unofficial repository, both
Stable, Wheezy and SID repositories in his sources.list but
without doing a dist-upgrade, which obviously can't work.

So, no sabotage here from Debian, only a user that doesn't
know how to use Debian and its stable/testing/sid flavors
properly.

Thomas


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 505C6843.4030108@debian.org">http://lists.debian.org/505C6843.4030108@debian.org
 
Old 09-21-2012, 02:41 PM
Jon Dowland
 
Default Comments on Mate DE

That's not really of any interest to -devel, and I guess you're quoting
info from private mail here. Please let's keep this list useful.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120921144100.GC1374@debian
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 07:25 AM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright ©2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org