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Old 04-15-2008, 06:34 PM
Goswin von Brederlow
 
Default RFH: Multiarch capable toolchain as release goal

Hi,

I would like to suggest a new release goal and hope that some DDs will
advocate it. This one is actualy quite trivial but some convincing
seems to be neccessary to get it done:


# Multiarch capable toolchain
Description: The toolchain should be ready to handle libraries and
include files in the multiarch locations.
Bug-Url: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=369064
State: All done except for binutils. Patch exists.


The toolchain support is needed so multiarch packages can be installed
on a uniarch systems (what we now have) and people can still compile
stuff.

We are so near to having a multiarch capable toolchain and the only
thing standing in the way of multiarch is ld not looking in all the
directories. Having this in Lenny would mean that future multiarch
packages could be used on / backported to Lenny without having to
revert the multiarch paths. We already have all the runtime support in
place and ld really is the last thing standing in the way.

It would be such a shame to waste another release cycle before we can
actualy start creating multiarch packages because of one lousy patch
not getting applied. So please do voice your support.

MfG
Goswin


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Old 04-15-2008, 07:03 PM
Andreas Barth
 
Default RFH: Multiarch capable toolchain as release goal

* Goswin von Brederlow (goswin-v-b@web.de) [080415 20:34]:
> Description: The toolchain should be ready to handle libraries and
> include files in the multiarch locations.
> Bug-Url: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=369064
> State: All done except for binutils. Patch exists.

Binutils are frozen for Lenny, so please no additional changes.


Cheers,
Andi
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Old 04-15-2008, 07:43 PM
Otavio Salvador
 
Default RFH: Multiarch capable toolchain as release goal

Andreas Barth <aba@not.so.argh.org> writes:

> * Goswin von Brederlow (goswin-v-b@web.de) [080415 20:34]:
>> Description: The toolchain should be ready to handle libraries and
>> include files in the multiarch locations.
>> Bug-Url: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=369064
>> State: All done except for binutils. Patch exists.
>
> Binutils are frozen for Lenny, so please no additional changes.

Andreas and what if a binutils was upload to experimental and stay
sometime there and other people report tests with it? Could this way,
a frozen exception be considered?

I've taken a look at the two final patches and they looks really
simple and looks to be low risk. Obviously, test would be required but
I also think that it would be a nice feature to get into Lenny if
possible.

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Old 04-15-2008, 07:56 PM
 
Default RFH: Multiarch capable toolchain as release goal

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 09:03:54PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> * Goswin von Brederlow (goswin-v-b@web.de) [080415 20:34]:
> > Description: The toolchain should be ready to handle libraries and
> > include files in the multiarch locations.
> > Bug-Url: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=369064
> > State: All done except for binutils. Patch exists.
>
> Binutils are frozen for Lenny, so please no additional changes.

I suspect by the time a fully working multiarch is done, x86 won't need
it anymore because everything will be fully 64bit.

Now I suppose sparc and others might still like it if they have
performance advantages of 32bit code over 64bit code, in which case
keeping 64bit for only those programs where the extra address space is
worth it would be great.

--
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Old 04-15-2008, 08:10 PM
Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt
 
Default RFH: Multiarch capable toolchain as release goal

Goswin von Brederlow <goswin-v-b@web.de> writes:
> I would like to suggest a new release goal

The release goal list is frozen. We will only drop goals, not add new
ones.

Marc
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Old 04-15-2008, 08:34 PM
Andreas Barth
 
Default RFH: Multiarch capable toolchain as release goal

* Lennart Sorensen (lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca) [080415 22:26]:
> On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 09:03:54PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> > * Goswin von Brederlow (goswin-v-b@web.de) [080415 20:34]:
> > > Description: The toolchain should be ready to handle libraries and
> > > include files in the multiarch locations.
> > > Bug-Url: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=369064
> > > State: All done except for binutils. Patch exists.
> >
> > Binutils are frozen for Lenny, so please no additional changes.
>
> I suspect by the time a fully working multiarch is done, x86 won't need
> it anymore because everything will be fully 64bit.
>
> Now I suppose sparc and others might still like it if they have
> performance advantages of 32bit code over 64bit code, in which case
> keeping 64bit for only those programs where the extra address space is
> worth it would be great.

I like the idea of multiarch quite much. But:

People, we want to release soon. Anyone is welcome to hack on feature in
experimental, but please do not push for stuff to unstable which is
expected to break stuff. If it wasn't important enough to push it during
the last 12 months, it isn't important enough to hold up the release
now.


Cheers,
Andi


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Old 04-15-2008, 09:10 PM
Ove Kaaven
 
Default RFH: Multiarch capable toolchain as release goal

Andreas Barth skrev:

* Lennart Sorensen (lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca) [080415 22:26]:

I suspect by the time a fully working multiarch is done, x86 won't need
it anymore because everything will be fully 64bit.


As Wine maintainer, I'd disagree with that.


People, we want to release soon. Anyone is welcome to hack on feature in
experimental, but please do not push for stuff to unstable which is
expected to break stuff. If it wasn't important enough to push it during
the last 12 months, it isn't important enough to hold up the release
now.


The way I understand it, they HAVE been pushing... and pushing... for a
long time... against a nonresponsive binutils maintainer. This thread is
just their latest, last-ditch effort since nothing else worked so far.
But I could be wrong, I guess.




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Old 04-16-2008, 03:59 AM
Goswin von Brederlow
 
Default RFH: Multiarch capable toolchain as release goal

Andreas Barth <aba@not.so.argh.org> writes:

> * Goswin von Brederlow (goswin-v-b@web.de) [080415 20:34]:
>> Description: The toolchain should be ready to handle libraries and
>> include files in the multiarch locations.
>> Bug-Url: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=369064
>> State: All done except for binutils. Patch exists.
>
> Binutils are frozen for Lenny, so please no additional changes.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Andi
> --
> http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/

Damn. And here I was hoping there were still time since only essential
is frozen and binutils is optional.

MfG
Goswin


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Old 04-16-2008, 04:11 AM
Goswin von Brederlow
 
Default RFH: Multiarch capable toolchain as release goal

lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca (Lennart Sorensen) writes:

> On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 09:03:54PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
>> * Goswin von Brederlow (goswin-v-b@web.de) [080415 20:34]:
>> > Description: The toolchain should be ready to handle libraries and
>> > include files in the multiarch locations.
>> > Bug-Url: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=369064
>> > State: All done except for binutils. Patch exists.
>>
>> Binutils are frozen for Lenny, so please no additional changes.
>
> I suspect by the time a fully working multiarch is done, x86 won't need
> it anymore because everything will be fully 64bit.

I would say we are already there big time. Users of ia32-libs do
disagree though. But the usefullness of multiarch for x86_64-linux-gnu
+ i486-linux-gnu has taken a major dive since sarge (which is a good
thing).

> Now I suppose sparc and others might still like it if they have
> performance advantages of 32bit code over 64bit code, in which case
> keeping 64bit for only those programs where the extra address space is
> worth it would be great.

s390x, sparc64, mips64, mipsel64, ppc64 all have performance hits for
64bit code so one would limit 64bit binaries to what needs the address
space.

But then there is i486-linux-gnu + i486-linux-uclibc,
x86_64-kfreebsd-gnu + x86_64-linux-gnu, arm-linux-gnu +
armel-linux-gnu, ia64-linux-gnu + i486-linux-gnu and many other
combinations.

Recently there was also renewed interest in reviving the 64bit long,
32bit pointer code generation in gcc for amd64. That way you get all
the speed benefits of the improved 64bit mode without the penalty of
double sized pointers. That could be used to slimmen programs that
don't need 64bit address space.

So, while being far less in demand, multiarch still has huge benefits.

MfG
Goswin


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Old 04-16-2008, 04:24 AM
Goswin von Brederlow
 
Default RFH: Multiarch capable toolchain as release goal

Ove Kaaven <ovek@arcticnet.no> writes:

> Andreas Barth skrev:
>> * Lennart Sorensen (lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca) [080415 22:26]:
>>> I suspect by the time a fully working multiarch is done, x86 won't need
>>> it anymore because everything will be fully 64bit.
>
> As Wine maintainer, I'd disagree with that.
>
>> People, we want to release soon. Anyone is welcome to hack on feature in
>> experimental, but please do not push for stuff to unstable which is
>> expected to break stuff. If it wasn't important enough to push it during

Have you read the patch? All it does is add more SEARCH_DIR("...");
entries to the /usr/lib/ldscripts/ and correct the entries that are
wrong now. The risk is virtually zero. Far far away from "expected to
break stuff".

>> the last 12 months, it isn't important enough to hold up the release
>> now.

It has been pushed since sarge. Unfortunately pushing doesn't mean
anything will give. The glibc and gcc teams where nice enough to add
the patches for multiarch support but binutils has just kept stubborn.

> The way I understand it, they HAVE been pushing... and pushing... for
> a long time... against a nonresponsive binutils maintainer. This
> thread is just their latest, last-ditch effort since nothing else
> worked so far. But I could be wrong, I guess.

You are right. The patch has been around for years and requests for any
response to the patch have just been ignored.

MfG
Goswin


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