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Old 09-12-2012, 10:39 AM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Gnome classic mode

On Mi, 12 sep 12, 12:16:50, Josselin Mouette wrote:
>
> So the real question is being able to choose the desktop from the
> installer instead of having to pre-seed this choice.

Assuming a user that has no idea what Gnome/KDE/Xfce/LXDE or even a
"Desktop Environment" is, what should happen if the user makes no choice
at all?

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:40 AM
Jerome BENOIT
 
Default Gnome classic mode

On 12/09/12 12:16, Josselin Mouette wrote:

Le mercredi 12 septembre 2012 11:03 +0100, Darac Marjal a crit :

Isn't the whole concept of "default desktop" just a matter of "which
desktop is included on CD1"? Are you proposing that Debian switches to a
series of "CD1s" (Debian Ghome Edition, Debian KDE Edition, Debian XFCE
Edition etc) or that Debian does away with offline installs entirely
("An internet connection is required to install Debian")?


What is on CD1 is really anecdotic, since most people use (or should
use) the netinst.


What does it happen when no internet connection is available (no access to internet,
no supported driver for the net card) ?
This case is certainly as anecdotic as CD1, but somehow in this situation CD1
can be very useful to step forward. So a CD1 with a light windows manager would be
a good idea; the other windows managers could be placed on the other CDs.



So the real question is being able to choose the desktop from the
installer instead of having to pre-seed this choice.



My 2 cents,
Jerome


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Old 09-12-2012, 11:34 AM
Josselin Mouette
 
Default Gnome classic mode

Le mercredi 12 septembre 2012 13:39 +0300, Andrei POPESCU a crit :
> Assuming a user that has no idea what Gnome/KDE/Xfce/LXDE or even a
> "Desktop Environment" is, what should happen if the user makes no choice
> at all?

What we have now: a sensible default.

--
.'`. Josselin Mouette
: :' :
`. `'
`-


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Old 09-12-2012, 11:38 AM
Darac Marjal
 
Default Gnome classic mode

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 01:34:38PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le mercredi 12 septembre 2012 13:39 +0300, Andrei POPESCU a crit :
> > Assuming a user that has no idea what Gnome/KDE/Xfce/LXDE or even a
> > "Desktop Environment" is, what should happen if the user makes no choice
> > at all?
>
> What we have now: a sensible default.

OK. I'm confused now. You want a default desktop without having a
default desktop?
 
Old 09-12-2012, 11:38 AM
Josselin Mouette
 
Default Gnome classic mode

Le mercredi 12 septembre 2012 * 12:40 +0200, Jerome BENOIT a écrit :
> What does it happen when no internet connection is available (no access to internet,
> no supported driver for the net card) ?
> This case is certainly as anecdotic as CD1, but somehow in this situation CD1
> can be very useful to step forward. So a CD1 with a light windows manager would be
> a good idea;

http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-cd/
→ debian-6.0.5-amd64-kde-CD-1.iso
→ debian-6.0.5-amd64-xfce+lxde-CD-1.iso

I’d appreciate if debian-devel could be a place where we talk about
Debian development, not a place to answer newbie FAQs.

> the other windows managers could be placed on the other CDs.

I’d also appreciate if people could stop spreading dumb shit like “KDE
is just a window manager”.
We could easily ship our 70+ window managers on a single CD. Yet we now
have trouble doing so with a single desktop environment.

--
.'`. Josselin Mouette
: :' :
`. `'
`-


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Old 09-12-2012, 12:08 PM
Andrei POPESCU
 
Default Gnome classic mode

On Mi, 12 sep 12, 13:34:38, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le mercredi 12 septembre 2012 13:39 +0300, Andrei POPESCU a crit :
> > Assuming a user that has no idea what Gnome/KDE/Xfce/LXDE or even a
> > "Desktop Environment" is, what should happen if the user makes no choice
> > at all?
>
> What we have now: a sensible default.

IMVHO it would probably be better to redesign the task selection screen
into a single choice menu similar to this:

,----
| Gnome Desktop Environment (graphical)
| KDE Desktop Environment (graphical)
| LXDE Desktop Environment (graphical)
| Xfce Desktop Environment (graphical)
| Standard Unix environment (text only)
| Basic install (text only)
`----

Moving the cursor over the selections would give brief explanations
about each option and should probably mention what hardware
recommendations each option has (3D, RAM, etc.).

Even better if this is done before the partitioning stage so that guided
partitioning recipes can be checked/adjusted according to the size
requirements.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:53 PM
Jerome BENOIT
 
Default Gnome classic mode

On 12/09/12 13:38, Josselin Mouette wrote:

Le mercredi 12 septembre 2012 * 12:40 +0200, Jerome BENOIT a écrit :

What does it happen when no internet connection is available (no access to internet,
no supported driver for the net card) ?
This case is certainly as anecdotic as CD1, but somehow in this situation CD1
can be very useful to step forward. So a CD1 with a light windows manager would be
a good idea;


http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/iso-cd/
→ debian-6.0.5-amd64-kde-CD-1.iso
→ debian-6.0.5-amd64-xfce+lxde-CD-1.iso

I’d appreciate if debian-devel could be a place where we talk about
Debian development, not a place to answer newbie FAQs.


Claiming that ``What is on CD1 is really anecdotic, since most people use (or should
use) the netinst' really sounds as claim of a newbie who has never installed Debian
on a computer. So do not be surprised to get newbie like responses.
Otherwise, I can manage anecdotic situations without reading newbie FAQ: thanks !




the other windows managers could be placed on the other CDs.


I’d also appreciate if people could stop spreading dumb shit like “KDE
is just a window manager”.


Did I say that ?


We could easily ship our 70+ window managers on a single CD. Yet we now
have trouble doing so with a single desktop environment.



I wanted to stress that netinst may not be the only way:
the ``most people' argument is a little short, not to say a newbie argument.

Jerome




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Old 09-12-2012, 02:36 PM
Jean-Christophe Dubacq
 
Default Gnome classic mode

On 12/09/2012 15:53, Jerome BENOIT wrote:

> Claiming that ``What is on CD1 is really anecdotic, since most people use (or should
> use) the netinst' really sounds as claim of a newbie who has never installed Debian
> on a computer. So do not be surprised to get newbie like responses.
> Otherwise, I can manage anecdotic situations without reading newbie FAQ: thanks !

I am pretty sure the claim is that people installing Debian either use
netinst or use a larger support (such as USB key or DVD). Debian
requires so many CD that I do not see the practical use of the CD image
except in very specific contexts. I do not say it has no uses; I think
Josselin is right when saying that it's anecdotic. More computers
everyday do not have a CD-reader. In wheezy+2, CD will probably have
become really obsolete.

This surely could be backed by numbers of downloads, that I do not have.

Oh, and this has been discussed this summer already.

Sincerly,
--
Jean-Christophe Dubacq
 
Old 09-12-2012, 03:47 PM
Jerome BENOIT
 
Default Gnome classic mode

Hi:

On 12/09/12 16:36, Jean-Christophe Dubacq wrote:

On 12/09/2012 15:53, Jerome BENOIT wrote:


Claiming that ``What is on CD1 is really anecdotic, since most people use (or should
use) the netinst' really sounds as claim of a newbie who has never installed Debian
on a computer. So do not be surprised to get newbie like responses.
Otherwise, I can manage anecdotic situations without reading newbie FAQ: thanks !


I am pretty sure the claim is that people installing Debian either use
netinst or use a larger support (such as USB key or DVD).


This claim sounds more reasonable.

Debian

requires so many CD that I do not see the practical use of the CD image
except in very specific contexts. I do not say it has no uses; I think
Josselin is right when saying that it's anecdotic. More computers
everyday do not have a CD-reader. In wheezy+2, CD will probably have
become really obsolete.


we are at Wheezy minus six months (or so):
let give to time some time.



This surely could be backed by numbers of downloads, that I do not have.


Indeed the ratio CD1/(DVD+USB+ ... (minus)(netinst)) should be low.



Oh, and this has been discussed this summer already.


and netinst is not the only way.



Sincerly,


Best wishes,
Jerome


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Old 09-12-2012, 05:29 PM
Michael Gilbert
 
Default Gnome classic mode

On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 6:16 AM, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Le mercredi 12 septembre 2012 11:03 +0100, Darac Marjal a crit :
>> Isn't the whole concept of "default desktop" just a matter of "which
>> desktop is included on CD1"? Are you proposing that Debian switches to a
>> series of "CD1s" (Debian Ghome Edition, Debian KDE Edition, Debian XFCE
>> Edition etc) or that Debian does away with offline installs entirely
>> ("An internet connection is required to install Debian")?

Debian already produces multiple CD1's with almost those exact labels.

> What is on CD1 is really anecdotic, since most people use (or should
> use) the netinst.
>
> So the real question is being able to choose the desktop from the
> installer instead of having to pre-seed this choice.

The installer already enables the user to make this choice. I suppose
it's under a kind of obscure boot option, which would explain why so
many usually well-informed people apparently don't know about it.
Take a look under "Advanced options" -> "Alternative desktop
environments" next time you boot the installer. Whether those options
would be more visible/discoverable under tasksel instead of the boot
menu is certainly open for debate, but it's not likely to change for
wheezy.

Best wishes,
Mike


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