FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Debian > Debian Development

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 09-18-2012, 01:06 PM
Jon Dowland
 
Default CD1 without a network mirror isn't sufficient to install a full desktop environment

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 12:45:36PM +0300, Serge wrote:
> There's no need to walk through the minefield, it's already done.
> Fedora lost more than half of the user base with the Fedora 15
> release (GNOME3 and systemd).

[citation-needed]

> They now bring GNOME2 back. [1]
>
> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MATE-Desktop

MATE is not GNOME2, it's a fork of GNOME2, and there's no indication
that they are planning to offer it as default, which is what we're discussing
here.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120918130657.GA16659@debian
 
Old 09-18-2012, 01:21 PM
Matthias Klumpp
 
Default CD1 without a network mirror isn't sufficient to install a full desktop environment

GNOME is seeking people to develop the GNOME-Panel - if MATE
developers want a classical desktop environment based on modern
technologies, they should develop the GNOME-Panel instead of forking
unmaintained and outdated technology like Bonobo or GConf.
I don't consider MATE to be future-proof. If you don't like the
GNOME-Shell, using GNOME3-Panel or Xfce instead is a much better
choice.
I'm working with some Fedora developers, and the MATE packaging is
just done by interested developers, and it's not clear at time if it
will be present in the next Fedora (depends on various factors, being
in the time-shedule being the most important one)
Regarding systemd, Fedora gained lots of support for this move, there
have been a few problems at first, but nothing serious. I can' offer
any number here, but all people I talked to love systemd or don't have
an opinion. (because they don't care)
- but that's a different topic.
Cheers,
Matthias

2012/9/18 Jon Dowland <jmtd@debian.org>:
> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 12:45:36PM +0300, Serge wrote:
>> There's no need to walk through the minefield, it's already done.
>> Fedora lost more than half of the user base with the Fedora 15
>> release (GNOME3 and systemd).
>
> [citation-needed]
>
>> They now bring GNOME2 back. [1]
>>
>> [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MATE-Desktop
>
> MATE is not GNOME2, it's a fork of GNOME2, and there's no indication
> that they are planning to offer it as default, which is what we're discussing
> here.
>
>
> --
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
> Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120918130657.GA16659@debian
>


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAKNHny8O8r1VbXUS=sziofz68ECTSLSYdNSYzj7Y7h3nLnE=O w@mail.gmail.com
 
Old 09-18-2012, 07:08 PM
Wouter Verhelst
 
Default CD1 without a network mirror isn't sufficient to install a full desktop environment

*sigh*

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 03:21:06PM +0200, Matthias Klumpp wrote:
> GNOME is seeking people to develop the GNOME-Panel - if MATE
> developers want a classical desktop environment based on modern
> technologies, they should develop the GNOME-Panel instead of forking
> unmaintained and outdated technology like Bonobo or GConf.

I'm so tired of these gnome2 vs gnome3 discussions...

One of the primary freedoms in free software is the freedom to fork. If
you want to tell people they shouldn't fork, you have no business being
a free software developer.

If the gnome people would prefer that there was no fork of gnome2, then
they should not have thrown it out. But they did, so it's their own
fault.

Also, "forking unmaintained software" is a contradiction. If you're
forking it, then by definition you'll be maintaining it.

> I don't consider MATE to be future-proof.

And that's your good right, but that really doesn't mean anything.

> If you don't like the GNOME-Shell, using GNOME3-Panel or Xfce instead
> is a much better choice.

Unfortunately, you're not in a position to decide anything about
anyone's preference, except where it concerns your own.

Fact is, gnome2 is now abandoned by the gnome developers, and there are
many people who consider that a bad idea. These people have decided to
continue the development of gnome2. AIUI, one of their stated goals is
to port gnome2 (the interface) onto gnome3 (the APIs), so that the two
can live side-by-side. This should not bring harm to gnome3 -- on the
contrary.

Now, if you don't like that, nobody's forcing you to use mate. If you
think they're silly and backwards in continuing to develop what some
other people have decided is outdated, you're free to ignore them. But
please do not attempt to tell people what they should spend their own
free time on. You won't be successful.

Thanks.

--
The volume of a pizza of thickness a and radius z can be described by
the following formula:

pi zz a


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 20120918190823.GX29592@grep.be">http://lists.debian.org/20120918190823.GX29592@grep.be
 
Old 09-18-2012, 07:40 PM
Matthias Klumpp
 
Default CD1 without a network mirror isn't sufficient to install a full desktop environment

Hi!

2012/9/18 Wouter Verhelst <wouter@debian.org>:
> [...]
> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 03:21:06PM +0200, Matthias Klumpp wrote:
>> GNOME is seeking people to develop the GNOME-Panel - if MATE
>> developers want a classical desktop environment based on modern
>> technologies, they should develop the GNOME-Panel instead of forking
>> unmaintained and outdated technology like Bonobo or GConf.
>
> I'm so tired of these gnome2 vs gnome3 discussions...
Me too...

> One of the primary freedoms in free software is the freedom to fork. If
> you want to tell people they shouldn't fork, you have no business being
> a free software developer.
That's not true. Identifying why people fork software and suggesting
alternatives to a fork is totally valid. Most forks are bad for
projects and are unnecessary.

> If the gnome people would prefer that there was no fork of gnome2, then
> they should not have thrown it out. But they did, so it's their own
> fault.
There have been reasons for abandoning the old GNOME2 software. There
are still valid reasons for not using GNOME-Shell, and I understand
people disliking it. But this does not mean that you have to fork *all
of GNOME2*. Instead, doing a fork of some core applications and the
GNOME panel would have been enough. And people working on GNOME3-Panel
are very welcome.

> Also, "forking unmaintained software" is a contradiction. If you're
> forking it, then by definition you'll be maintaining it.
>
>> I don't consider MATE to be future-proof.
> And that's your good right, but that really doesn't mean anything.
Yes, but I know that. I'm not here to make any decision, I want to add
some information and my opinion, that's the whole point of
discussions.

> Fact is, gnome2 is now abandoned by the gnome developers, and there are
> many people who consider that a bad idea. These people have decided to
> continue the development of gnome2. AIUI, one of their stated goals is
> to port gnome2 (the interface) onto gnome3 (the APIs), so that the two
> can live side-by-side. This should not bring harm to gnome3 -- on the
> contrary.
Agreed. I still don't think forking all of GNOME2 was a good idea -
now they would have to do a GTK+3 migration, a DConf migration a
DBus-migration etc. again on their own. Last time I talked to some
people who were Mate developers (they claimed to be it), they didn't
even know about this issue...

> Now, if you don't like that, nobody's forcing you to use mate. If you
> think they're silly and backwards in continuing to develop what some
> other people have decided is outdated, you're free to ignore them. But
> please do not attempt to tell people what they should spend their own
> free time on. You won't be successful.
I'm not telling anyone what to do :P I added my opinion, which really
is only my opinion does not mean anything for someone else. The thing
I don't like is that Mate might slow down the adoption of new GNOME
base libraries, which is really bad. Deprecating the old stuff is very
important for me, and with Mate tools still using the old libraries,
this goal can't be achieved that easily. Of course many other desktops
also use "old" technology, but they all have plans to switch to the
new libs (and are discussing it).
I definitely need to talk to the Mate people again to see what their
plans are, but the "let's fork everything!" approach is definitely not
good... - a "let's fork the GNOME-Panel and Nautilus and make them
better" solution without the old libs would be better and a pretty
great solution. At time I see Mate in the same line with the Trinity
desktop (fork of KDE3).

As always, just my opinion, I'm telling nobody what to do :-) (why
should I try to do that, btw.?)
Regards,
Matthias


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: CAKNHny9g6VGXwGW1YNo5FZ+VC8Cos246rL0oae+SPGgcpBA_H g@mail.gmail.com">http://lists.debian.org/CAKNHny9g6VGXwGW1YNo5FZ+VC8Cos246rL0oae+SPGgcpBA_H g@mail.gmail.com
 
Old 09-19-2012, 07:54 AM
Jon Dowland
 
Default CD1 without a network mirror isn't sufficient to install a full desktop environment

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 09:08:23PM +0200, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> I'm so tired of these gnome2 vs gnome3 discussions...

Stop proliferating them then! They are orthogonal to the point of
this thread, and you will never shout down all the people who disagree
with your point of view.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120919075442.GB2663@debian
 
Old 09-19-2012, 10:15 AM
Josselin Mouette
 
Default CD1 without a network mirror isn't sufficient to install a full desktop environment

Le mardi 18 septembre 2012 Ă* 21:08 +0200, Wouter Verhelst a Ă©crit :
> > I don't consider MATE to be future-proof.
>
> And that's your good right, but that really doesn't mean anything.

It means that MATE developers do not have the knowledge to maintain
several of the components they ship.

The very fact that they forked GConf (MateConf) while GConf 3.x is still
binary-compatible should be enough to understand that.

> Fact is, gnome2 is now abandoned by the gnome developers, and there are
> many people who consider that a bad idea. These people have decided to
> continue the development of gnome2. AIUI, one of their stated goals is
> to port gnome2 (the interface) onto gnome3 (the APIs), so that the two
> can live side-by-side. This should not bring harm to gnome3 -- on the
> contrary.

This is completely silly. “Porting GNOME 2 to GNOME 3 APIs” has already
been done, and it is called gnome-panel 3.

> Now, if you don't like that, nobody's forcing you to use mate.

Indeed. But we have a code duplication policy, and I hope we enforce it
before shipping such software (especially sed-generated libraries).

--
.'`. Josselin Mouette
: :' :
`. `'
`-


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1348049750.3542.386.camel@pi0307572
 
Old 10-09-2012, 12:50 AM
Serge
 
Default CD1 without a network mirror isn't sufficient to install a full desktop environment

2012/9/18 Jon Dowland wrote:

>> There's no need to walk through the minefield, it's already done.
>> Fedora lost more than half of the user base with the Fedora 15
>> release (GNOME3 and systemd).
>
> [citation-needed]

Good point.

Initially it was a personal feeling. Many fedora users I know have
switched to CentOS/ScientificLinux/Ubuntu/Mint/etc after Fedora15
release. A few others just use old Fedora14 manually updating it when
needed. Among those still using Fedora15+ most GNOME users switched
to XFCE/LXDE. But those "users I know" are still not too much to talk
about all users. So I did some research.

Fedora provides a nice stats page:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics
The best part of it is IP stats per release. After some manual digging
through the history of that page I was able to build a chart (attached)
comparing some sort of popularity among releases.

I understand that it's not perfect. But I don't know any better.
For a good chart I need raw stats data which Fedora doesn't provide (yet?)

Fedora lost about 40% in popularity comparing just F14 and F15.
But acceptance of F15 release was ~3 times worse than F14.
~80% of users stayed on F14, after F15 release.
On the other hand only ~30% were loyal to F15.
The other 70% dropped F15 as soon as F16 was out.

Now, 2 years after release, F14 is still on top by the number of IPs,
after F8. Looks like the case of F8 vs F9 is going to repeat again
(F9 was a KDE4+upstart release, F15 was GNOME3+systemd).

PS: I wish Debian had a similar stats page.
It's now possible with http.debian.org.

--
Serge
 
Old 10-09-2012, 09:39 AM
Wouter Verhelst
 
Default CD1 without a network mirror isn't sufficient to install a full desktop environment

On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 03:50:00AM +0300, Serge wrote:
> PS: I wish Debian had a similar stats page.
> It's now possible with http.debian.org.

popcon reports its version number when it sends in statistics, from
which it's easy to derive the distribution in use. There's some stats
about that on the popcon website, http://popcon.debian.org/

--
Copyshops should do vouchers. So that next time some bureaucracy requires you
to mail a form in triplicate, you can mail it just once, add a voucher, and
save on postage.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
Archive: 20121009093954.GA10471@grep.be">http://lists.debian.org/20121009093954.GA10471@grep.be
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 04:20 PM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright ©2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org