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Old 09-11-2012, 02:32 PM
"Lennart Sorensen"
 
Default CD1 without a network mirror isn't sufficient to install a full desktop environment

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 01:52:44PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> Just because these people are noisy doesn’t make them numerous.
>
> Furthermore, Debian (and Ubuntu too IIRC) makes “GNOME classic”
> available right from the login manager, with the default installation.
> Not considering gnome-panel 3.x a continuation of the existing
> environment is purely bad faith.

Well as a user, gnome-panel 3.x is NOT a continuation of gnome.

When gnome 3 hit unstable, I switched to something else. I couldn't
find anything, or make it do any of the basic things I expect my window
manager to do, so it is gone. Useless piece of shit.

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Old 09-11-2012, 02:34 PM
"Lennart Sorensen"
 
Default CD1 without a network mirror isn't sufficient to install a full desktop environment

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 03:23:09PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> You can’t be serious. Xfce is way more different from GNOME 2 than GNOME
> 3 classic is.

Well if gnome 3 classic was the default, then fine. But gnome 3 with
the new panel as default is really not acceptable and just plain mean
to users.

> If those users are satisfied with Xfce, that’s very good for them, and I
> agree Xfce is of very good quality. However, it still lacks a number of
> features and for many use cases, you need pieces of GNOME with it.

Well it certainly doesn't lack the basic features I use that gnome 3
with the new panel is missing.

> I would not qualify most of the whiners as “fellow contributors”.

Perhaps not, but I think a pretty large chunk would qualify.

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Old 09-11-2012, 02:47 PM
Josselin Mouette
 
Default CD1 without a network mirror isn't sufficient to install a full desktop environment

Le mardi 11 septembre 2012 10:32 -0400, Lennart Sorensen a crit :
> Well as a user, gnome-panel 3.x is NOT a continuation of gnome.

It is the same codebase, and has the same functionality.

> When gnome 3 hit unstable, I switched to something else. I couldn't
> find anything, or make it do any of the basic things I expect my window
> manager to do, so it is gone. Useless piece of shit.

Please give one serious example. The two features that I know to be gone
in the panel are the ability to change the color easily (ha, ha) and
absolute positioning for applets (which was useless and buggy anyway).

Unless you talk about gnome-shell which is an entirely different piece
of software.

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: :' :
`. `'
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Old 09-11-2012, 02:50 PM
Josselin Mouette
 
Default CD1 without a network mirror isn't sufficient to install a full desktop environment

Le mardi 11 septembre 2012 * 10:34 -0400, Lennart Sorensen a écrit :
> On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 03:23:09PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> > You can’t be serious. Xfce is way more different from GNOME 2 than GNOME
> > 3 classic is.
>
> Well if gnome 3 classic was the default, then fine. But gnome 3 with
> the new panel as default is really not acceptable and just plain mean
> to users.

Yeah sure, it is mean to ask whining users to just select “GNOME
classic” in the login manager. It is an extremely complicated task, so
complicated even that it would have to be made default to avoid 2 clicks
at the first boot to those poor whiners (and add 2 more clicks for other
users, but who cares).

> > If those users are satisfied with Xfce, that’s very good for them, and I
> > agree Xfce is of very good quality. However, it still lacks a number of
> > features and for many use cases, you need pieces of GNOME with it.
>
> Well it certainly doesn't lack the basic features I use that gnome 3
> with the new panel is missing.

Again, I’m eager to learn what features you deem “missing” from
gnome-panel 3.4.

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: :' :
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Old 09-11-2012, 03:01 PM
Ian Jackson
 
Default CD1 without a network mirror isn't sufficient to install a full desktop environment

Jon Dowland writes ("Re: CD1 without a network mirror isn't sufficient to install a full desktop environment"):
> There is not a single Debian release with the version that is being
> complained about. Therefore the audience of stable have not yet
> tried it, and you're drawing conclusions from the anecdotes of a
> sample of users who may not be representative of our (stable) users.

Firstly, my social circle is not confined to Debian users. Secondly,
although I'm not one of them, I know that many people who like to run
Debian on their desktop prefer to use testing because they feel it is
more up to date. I don't know what proportion of the overall Debian
userbase that represents, but neither do you.

> I feel that the decision to change from GNOME to something else, on the
> basis of complaints about GNOME 3, should only be considered after we've
> actually released with at least one version of GNOME 3.

I don't agree at all. If xfce is more like GNOME 2 than GNOME 3 is
like GNOME 2 then you might as well argue the contrary.

Ian.


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Old 09-11-2012, 03:03 PM
"Lennart Sorensen"
 
Default CD1 without a network mirror isn't sufficient to install a full desktop environment

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 04:47:34PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
> It is the same codebase, and has the same functionality.

It is the same source code tree, with a bunch of code completely changed,
and it certainly does not have the same functionality (although it may
be slowly gaining some of what was missing in 3.0 back).

> Please give one serious example. The two features that I know to be gone
> in the panel are the ability to change the color easily (ha, ha) and
> absolute positioning for applets (which was useless and buggy anyway).
>
> Unless you talk about gnome-shell which is an entirely different piece
> of software.

Quite honestly, as a user, I don't care what gnome names each piece of
the UI. I consider it all gnome.

If I can't find how to maximize a window, how to logout, or much of
anything else in the first 5 minutes of use, then it isn't usable.

Of course this is probably getting off topic for debian-boot and almost
debian-devel.

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Old 09-11-2012, 03:07 PM
Josselin Mouette
 
Default CD1 without a network mirror isn't sufficient to install a full desktop environment

Le mardi 11 septembre 2012 * 11:03 -0400, Lennart Sorensen a écrit :
> If I can't find how to maximize a window, how to logout, or much of
> anything else in the first 5 minutes of use, then it isn't usable.
>
> Of course this is probably getting off topic for debian-boot and almost
> debian-devel.

Yes, FUD is off-topic for these lists. Unfortunately, this particular
FUD is pretty widespread.

So unless you are able to quote at least ONE serious feature that GNOME
3 in “classic” mode is missing from the GNOME 2 panel, I suggest you
shut the fuck up and stop spreading FUD.

Thanks,
--
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: :' :
`. `'
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Old 09-11-2012, 04:00 PM
Adam Borowski
 
Default CD1 without a network mirror isn't sufficient to install a full desktop environment

On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 02:33:26PM -0400, Jeremy Bicha wrote:
> On 9 September 2012 23:21, Ztatik Light <ztatik.light@gmail.com> wrote:
> > According to popcon, Xfce is more common on Debian than GNOME... And
>
> How do you figure that?
>
> http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=meta-gnome3
> http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=xfce4
>
> Just looking at popcon, GNOME is installed several more times as much
> as XFCE. Even gnome-shell has more installs than xfce4-panel despite
> GNOME Shell having not been included in a stable Debian release yet.

And exim has so much more installs than postfix, so it must be tremendously
better than the latter, right? You're comparing a default option with a
non-default one, in such a case even 5-10% for the contender sends a strong
message. Remember, most users (by count, ie what popcon measures) don't
really know any better than "enter, enter, enter" -- or rather, "click next,
next, next".

And it's not just new users: it's everyone who has no special reason to
choose another alternative over the default. Years ago, I went with exim
as that was the default, and for a smallish mail server (~11 users) I feel
no urge to learn postfix or something -- as I understand, both have their
own strengths and problems, yet are roughly equivalent overall.

Popcon can be used to measure relative popularity of xfce vs kde vs
windowmaker vs lxde vs ..., but it can hardly tell you anything about gnome.

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Old 09-11-2012, 04:16 PM
Ztatik Light
 
Default CD1 without a network mirror isn't sufficient to install a full desktop environment

Well, I know there *is* a Git commit to set it to xfce instead of gnome, but I don't know how authoritative or influential it will end up being.* I also like the idea of compressing/trimming GNOME.* Thanks for the feedback.


http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=tasksel/tasksel.git;a=commit;h=2a962cc65cdba010177f27e8824 ba10d9a799a08


On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 8:06 PM, Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> wrote:

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 5:28 AM, Ztatik Light wrote:



> But, even *more* reason to not entirely push GNOME

> aside for Xfce.



That hasn't happened at all, the tech media you have been reading and

believing neglected to check their facts:



pabs@chianamo ~/tasksel-3.13 $ grep -A3 tasksel/desktop debian/templates

Template: tasksel/desktop

Type: multiselect

Choices: gnome, kde, xfce, lxde

Default: gnome



Indeed, the release team have been pursuing compressing GNOME better

so it will fit.



--

bye,

pabs



http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
 
Old 09-18-2012, 09:45 AM
Serge
 
Default CD1 without a network mirror isn't sufficient to install a full desktop environment

2012/9/11 Jon Dowland wrote:

> I feel that the decision to change from GNOME to something else, on the
> basis of complaints about GNOME 3, should only be considered after we've
> actually released with at least one version of GNOME 3.

There's no need to walk through the minefield, it's already done.
Fedora lost more than half of the user base with the Fedora 15
release (GNOME3 and systemd). They now bring GNOME2 back. [1]

[1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MATE-Desktop

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