On 08/08/2012 10:32 AM, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote:
> I think this is a great idea
>
> You can't imagine how much I blame Debian each time I have to type the
> full path "/sbin/ifconfig" as a non-root user on virtual servers to just
> know the IP address the DHCP server assigned to the machine.
>
Start using the right tool for the job (I mean: "ip addr show"),
and stop blaming Debian. Using ifconfig by the way will show
you only part of the information (eg: if there's more than one
IP assign, ifconfig will not show it).

If ifconfig is the only reason why we should move everything,
change $PATH and so on, please find a better excuse, because
I'm not at all buying into that one!

Thomas Goirand (zigo)


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Hi,

On 08.08.2012 10:32, Holger Levsen wrote:
> On Mittwoch, 8. August 2012, Michael Stummvoll wrote:
>> what exactly is the actually reason that a default normal user has ip in
>> his PATH but not ifconfig (also route)?
>
> hysteric raisins.

historic, rather. ifconfig and route were around already when everyone
insisted on the separation of /bin and /sbin. /bin/ip is slightly newer
and supposed to replace ifconfig/route some day entirely.

I don't think we have concrete plans to get rid of net-tools in a
foreseeable future though.


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On 08/08/2012 04:28 PM, Alberto Fuentes wrote:
> On 08/08/2012 09:43 AM, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
>> Experienced users should be able to do this easily. And those who don't
>> knwo what to do with the tools in */sbin/* probably don't want/need them
>> in $PATH.
>
>
> I think the topic in here is good defaults for debian/"more common
> case" no if debian/users are able to handle such changes.
>
> I also add sbin to path as one the first steps after installation and
> i think is a good thing. Not sure whats the best technical approach
> tho ( merge directories, add to path... link to bin only for those
> binaries that make sense there...)
>
>
Exactly what do you need from sbin as a user?

If you have some examples, then please file bugs...

Thomas


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Hi,

On 08.08.2012 12:11, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> Start using the right tool for the job (I mean: "ip addr show"),
> and stop blaming Debian. Using ifconfig by the way will show
> you only part of the information (eg: if there's more than one
> IP assign, ifconfig will not show it).

ifconfig eth0 192.168.0.1 up
ifconfig eth0:0 192.168.0.2 up
ifconfig

It does not list addresses you added with ip without adding a
sub-interface, however. With respect to visibility, one might wonder if
doing that that is a good idea after all.

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On Aug 08, Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> wrote:

> Sure, certainly true. But, assuming that we have a consensus that the
> distinction no longer matters and just causes extra work (something that
> I'm inclined to agree with but that I don't think we can assume we've
> decided on yet), I hate to see us doing the expedient thing because doing
> the right thing is too hard.
Is the goal fixing a problem or reaching some ideal of file system
organization?
Merging /sbin and /bin right now does not solve any other problem than
changing the $PATH, but requires *much* more work.

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Thomas Goirand wrote:
[...]
> Exactly what do you need from sbin as a user?

I use stuff from sbin as user all the time. A quick glance at /sbin
shows these commands that I use on a regular basis:

blkid
fdisk
all the fscks
all the mkfss
hdparm
ifconfig (before this discussion I'd never even *heard* of ip)
iwconfig
mount.cifs
parted
route
showmount

Like the parent, I add /sbin and /usr/sbin to my path immediately after
installing a new Debian system.

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On Aug 08, Arno Töll <arno@debian.org> wrote:

> historic, rather. ifconfig and route were around already when everyone
> insisted on the separation of /bin and /sbin. /bin/ip is slightly newer
> and supposed to replace ifconfig/route some day entirely.
Just for the records, iproute entirely replaced ifconfig/route long ago.
The only reason for keeping around the old programs is compatibility
with other packages not yet updated and to not scare people who do not
know better.

(Does anybody want to try removing net-tools and see what breaks?)

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On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 03:16:59AM +0200, Ulrich Dangel wrote:
> Currently the default PATH for Debian does not include /sbin, /usr/sbin, nor
> /usr/local/sbin. If an user wants to run a program in either /sbin/ or /usr/sbin
> the full path must be specified.
>
> Changing the default PATH for normal users to include /sbin, /usr/sbin as well as
> /usr/local/sbin would be a great thing for simplifying command line usage for
> normal users.

Could you please tell me a single benefit from such a change? All I see are
downsides. It would degrade tab completion and pollute the namespace.

The reason you say, is a single obsolete tool, ifconfig, being in the wrong
directory. So let's instead move it to /bin/ -- or preferably, to /dev/null
(unless depended upon).


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On 08/08/2012 12:14 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote:

On 08/08/2012 04:28 PM, Alberto Fuentes wrote:

On 08/08/2012 09:43 AM, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:

Experienced users should be able to do this easily. And those who don't
knwo what to do with the tools in */sbin/* probably don't want/need them
in $PATH.



I think the topic in here is good defaults for debian/"more common
case" no if debian/users are able to handle such changes.

I also add sbin to path as one the first steps after installation and
i think is a good thing. Not sure whats the best technical approach
tho ( merge directories, add to path... link to bin only for those
binaries that make sense there...)



Exactly what do you need from sbin as a user?

If you have some examples, then please file bugs...

Thomas




blkid, brctl, ifconfig, route, run-level are my main reasons. There
might be more...


Other distros looked for similar functionality using the easier way to
do it, that is, adding path to $PATH but im not sure if thats the best
technical solution (nor i know what that would be)


Since we are not lazy and pursue technical excellence, we can think of
what makes more sense. Maybe add a few links to bin for the binaries
that make sense is more than enough. In any case we should unify
criteria. Mount seems to rest in /bin instead of /sbin for example...


Maybe merge directories is what makes more sense nowadays... I dont know


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David Given <david.given@gmail.com> writes:

> Thomas Goirand wrote:
> [...]
>> Exactly what do you need from sbin as a user?
>
> I use stuff from sbin as user all the time. A quick glance at /sbin
> shows these commands that I use on a regular basis:
>
> blkid
> fdisk
> all the fscks
> all the mkfss
> hdparm
> ifconfig (before this discussion I'd never even *heard* of ip)
> iwconfig
> mount.cifs
> parted
> route
> showmount
>
> Like the parent, I add /sbin and /usr/sbin to my path immediately after
> installing a new Debian system.

But, you know what those commands do, and I think we can agree, that
most - if not all - of them are quite close to being tools for the
admin, even if they don't necessarily require root. A 'regular' user on
a multi-user system will not likely need any of them.

It *might* make sense to (optionally) add */sbin to the PATH of the
first user installed. I wouldn't add it for everyone else too, however.

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